Jat history September 29 2003

Hi Facts,

“I will give up all my claims if you can only tell me why Jordaines writes Goths originated from Scandanavia.Was he wrong on this score ? If so,how can we trust him on anything else ?”

The answer to this is very simple. Jordanes borrowed this quote from Cassidorus (520), who in turn was commissioned by King Theodoric. Theodoric wanted to exalt his family traditions by claiming a unique origin, setting him apart from other Gothic tribes.

The shear fact that Isidore of Seville, a writer roughly concurrent to Jordanes, never mentioned Scandinavia at all shows that this was entirely an invention of Cassidorus.

Now, it is time to give up your claim – FOB boy.

Regards,

PS – His identification with of Goth with Getae is based on the testimony of Orosius Paulus, which he states explicitly.

If you convince the world to drop Jordanes, you have sealed the Getae and Goth connection.

Hi Sunny,

"Theodoric wanted to exalt his family traditions by claiming a unique origin, setting him apart from other Gothic tribes.... "

So Jordaines is not a faithful historian,not to mention self-contradictory! We cannot trust his writings..What were his motivations?

Now I suggest you go find out why Jordaines mistakenly equates Goths with Getae.

P.S. Sunny, in Canada we generally refer to all 'East-Indians'(Jats)as dippers or fob's....You're very clueless my friend.And you claim to be born in America but are so fresh.

BEST,

An addition to my last post,


Regarding Goth = Getae nonsense.

The ancient or classical authors were often motived by political reasons,or led astray by inaccurate,dubious claims by secondary sources in fermenting their 'historical' claims , as Sunny himself is now admitting!

The identification with Goth and Getae is one such prime example.


(A)Here's Dirk on the issue:

"Sunny, the Goths are a Germanic people. We know that they spoke Germanic, that their names were Germanic and that much of their culture was Germanic."[and all this is supported by modern research,from Mallory et al]
"Ancient authors applied lables to different groups based on their geographic and ethnological knowledge. According to this knowledge, barbarians living north east of the civilised Classical world were Scyths. Hence, they called the Goths Scyths and used naive fold etymology to identify them with the Getae. However, Getae, where a Thracian people and not a Germanic people...."

(B) This is an eye opener:

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/germanic/j.php


GERMANIC SOURCES


Jordanes was a Goth who, although not a scholar, devoted himself to writing history in Latin. His first major work, De origine actibusque Getarum ("On the Origin and Deeds of the Getae"),…. In the title of the work, Jordanes CONFUSES the Goths with the Getae, a WHOLLY DISTINCT people.


(C) Jordaines blindly followed Cassiodorous’s erroneous identification of the Goths with the Getae.Two wrongs don’t make a right .;

http://www.ku.edu/history/index/euro...1911*.html

1911 ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA


"The rest of their early history, as it is given by Jordanes following Cassiodorus, is due to an erroneous identification of the Goths with the Getae, an ancient Thracian people."

Regards,

Rehash:


http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat...s/n_miteva.htm

(A)One possible reason why Jordanes tried to equate Goth with Getae:

"The Church historian Philostorgius, and after him Cassiodorus and Jordanes, also used the name "Getae" to denote the Goths — apparently due to phonological similarity and archaization on an ethnogeographic basis. For the Gothic historian Jordanes it was essential to glorify the ancient origin of the Goths through the deeds of the Getae"

(B)Identity between Getae and Slav certain.Also consult Mallory et al.


"It seems that the chronicler of the first half of the 6th century Marcellinus Comes used the name "Getae" rather arbitrarily, when he did not know the ethnic belonging of someone. The identity between "Getae" and "Slavs" is almost certain, and in the invasion of 530 he differentiated well the "Getae" from the Bulgarians. Identity between "Getae" and Slavs is also found in Theophylactus Simocatta. [8]"

Best,

Research: Thracian History.


http://www.digsys.bg/books/history/thracians.html

"The ancestors of the Thracians had lived on the Balkan Peninsula as far back as the new Stone Age. Experts use the term 'Proto-Thracians' to describe the inhabitants of an extensive area in South-Eastern Europe during the third and second millennium B.C. The name 'Thracians' first appeared at the end of the second millennium B.C. (according to Homer). 'From that time on this term gradually became the common ethnonym for the inhabitants of the area between the Carpathians and the Aegean Sea, the Black Sea and the valleys of the Morava and Vardar rivers' (Acad. V. Georgiev, Prof. A. Foll and Prof. G.I. Georgiev)….

Slavery in the Thracian community existed on a smaller scale than in the Greek states. According to Herodotus, however, the Thracians did on occasion sell their own children into slavery. The state of Philip II (359 - 336 B.C.) and his son Alexander of Macedon (336-323 B.C.) resembled more closely the classical form of slave ownership. Both kings were involved in Greek and Balkan affairs. Alexander of Macedon took the Greek world out east, drafting into his army many Thracians. The Celts, too, took possession of some Thracian lands. Their state, with the capital of Tile (near the present-day town of Kazanluk) existed from 279 to 211 B.C. Thus the Celts left their trace on these lands, after which they dispersed to settle over the entire continent, reaching the British Isles. Scythian and other tribes also migrated to the Thracian lands, but the Thracians firmly withstood the invaders….

A courageous and daring people, the Thracians were employed as mercenaries in the armies of various rulers as early as the Hellenic epoch, later in the Roman auxiliary troops, and from the second century onwards in the legions. The great slave uprising in the Roman empire (74-71 B.C.) can also be attributed to Thracian history not just because its leader and military commander Spartacus was a Thracian (it seems most likely that he came from the Medi tribe which inhabited the areas along the Strouma River) but also for the reason that most of the insurgent slaves were Thracians and Gauls….
Thracians, of the freedom-loving spirit of this land-tilling and stock-breeding population, was the multiplicity of religious cults it upheld: they worshipped the Horseman and his female counterpart Bendida; they partook of the Dionysian orgies (mainly the southern Thracians); upheld the Orphic teaching, based on the Dionysian cult, which was born in Thrace but later spread to and further developed in the Greek world. The Thracian Horseman (given the Greek name Heros in many reliefs and inscriptions) in his many forms became an almost universal deity during the Roman epoch: a deity of hunting, fertility, life and death, of God the Almighty, the omniscient, the omnipresent. Over 1500 stone reliefs and more than 100 bronze statuettes of the Horseman have been uncovered on the territory of present-day Bulgaria.

Various tribes continued to cross the Danube from the north-east. The native population neither hastened to unite with them, nor resisted them. The newcomers and the natives, burdened with heavy imperial taxes and multitudinous duties, cooperated in a unique manner. By the end of the third century and especially during the fourth century the lands along the Lower Danube were the target of incessant invasions by various tribes - Goths, Vandals, Huns, etc. By the end of the fifth century and the turn of the sixth century the Slavs also began to infiltrate the Balkan Peninsula on a mass scale."

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http://www.denudation.de/berichte/pa...os/1210_02.JPG


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http://www.touringsite.com/Images/Grand%20Tetons.jpg

Hi K.M.M.,

Nice pictures!

But Chakwal is the homeland of my ancestors.Jats have traditionally been an oppressed community there.Indeed,that's why you are trying to become a Pathan,to hide your shame!

Brahmin, Pathan,and Aryan tribes reigned supreme in Chakwal, before partition.

It's painfully obvious.

.

Hi Facts,

“So Jordaines is not a faithful historian,not to mention self-contradictory! We cannot trust his writings..What were his motivations?”

Okay let’s drop Jordanes – now prove that the Goths came from Scandinavia without Jordanes!

Other note: “…in Canada we generally refer to all 'East-Indians'(Jats)as dippers or fob's…”

Who is “we”? Whites or scrawny dot wearing Indian nationals who are so embarrassed of India that think they are white?

Regards.

PS – Calling me a “Fob or Dipper” is inflating my ego : ) I think the Jat ancestors would be very proud of a fellow like me.

Sunny,

"Okay let’s drop Jordanes – now prove that the Goths came from Scandinavia without Jordanes! "

Easy!

Tacitus,Caesar,Pytheas et al., all sane modern scholars as in Mallory,J.P.,inscriptional runic evidence,historical wanderings of the Gothic tribes,their river names and early tribal identities,LINGIUSTIC evidence etc. etc. Sunny,sane people do not base their theories on the words of one classical writer as you do;words which are open to wide interpretation at that.Ask Dirk.

I'll give you the hors d'oeuvre.

pp.85

"The Northern Germanic or Scandanavian languages today embrace 20 million speakers of Danish,Swedish,Norwegian and Icelandic. The Goths had migrated from the north into the Black Sea region where they ruled until the arrival of the Huns in the fourth century AD who pushed most of the Gothic tribes westward into the Balkhans."

Read this carefully;

pp.85,continued..

"Other than direct textual evidence[runic inscriptions from north Europe] of the Germanic language,we have the writings of classical historians,the most important of whome is Tacitus who described the location and culture of the early Germans in his Germania....Earlier sources,such as Caesar in the first century BC....The earliest historical source,Pytheas,is generally understood to have located the Germanic tribe of the Teutons in present-day Denmark and the Gutones to northern Germany.Both the historical and inscriptional evidence indicate that the EARLIEST Germanic-speaking peoples were largely distributed in the area of northern Germany and southern Scandanavia."


Now be resourceful and read the details on your own accord.Get a copy of Mallory,chop-chop.-- you've been spoon fed by me for far too long.


P.S. The 'dipper' label certainly has affected you profoundly.

By the way Sunny,

Did I refrence Plinius, who mentions the Goths before anyone else?..Well he placed them in northern Germany.Do your homework Micky.

Here's the latest research on Gothic oriigns:

Kaliff, Anders,"Gothic Connections, Contacts between eastern Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.", Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala,2002.

Goths and Scandinavia


"From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery as
well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued in
a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia….Regular contacts between high ranking
groups in different geographic areas could eventually have developed
into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in similarities
in material culture, language and burial customs. The archaeological
record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin of
the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
background. "

---Not to mention that Thracian(Getic) is not a Germanic(Gothic) language....Retarded.