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kill all pakis and bandits thaths the only way!!!!

If anyone is interested in discussing Sikh Scpritures, I've been able to set a forum http://punjabi.net/talk/messages/3/511.html?WednesdayJune720001014am

Ridwan
Just a quick point...Sikhism went through an evolution between the times of Nanak and Gobind, for reasons that you are knowledgable of. Nanak and the other Gurus were the same (Allah carried the spirit of the Guru/Pir/Murshid over), there was never a deviation of the dogma.
Just as Nanak never fought for a material profit, neither did Gobind. Even in Gobind's home town - Anandpur Sahib, he stated that not even one bigha (acre) belonged to him. His war with Aurungzeb was legitimate for raesons known to those that have read the history.
Finally the concept of Khanda originated during Hargobind's (6th Guru. Symbolically its meaning is peaceful i.e The Sword of God - representing His Justice and Strength.

Taj
You have raised some important points which although are disturbing are nontheless accurate. "Islamic" groups like Hizb-ur-Tahrir and Al-Muhajiroon are short sighted and bigoted organizations that fail to comprehend any kind of reason or logic. Their ideologies are completely violent and extreme. But to some extent I have respect for Hizb-ur-Tahrir and the reason for that is that they do not believe blindly like most Muslims do. They in fact encourage Muslims to rationally explain the existence of God. This is unparralelled in any other group. This is why about three/four years ago even I was drawn to them. But now I become wiser and have distanced myself from ALL such groups. I said the Hizb-ur-Tahrir are rational, but only to a certain extent. Even they are mainly over passionate and extreme in their views, as you may well know.
The truth is that there is a global Wahabbi conspired conspiracy to keep Muslims and indeed the whole of humanity from the truth, who knows,perhaps even the West has a hand in this. After all the West are protecters of the Saudi's, who are the ones plotting this conspiracy.
In the 1970s an Egyptian American doctor named Rashid Khalifa loaded the whole Quran onto a computer and by doing so discovered a mathematical pattern based on the number 19. He infact discovered a mathematical miracle in the Quran. His findings were at first rejoiced by the entire Muslim world and he was invited to several Muslim countries where he was interviews on radio and tv. He was hailed a hero.
Shortly afterwards however this hero shunned the Hadith and Sunnah( supposed actions and sayings of the prophet)and declared them to be baseless. He claimed that both history and the Holy Quran stood against the Hadith literature.
It is this literature that has crept into Islam and made it appear as an evil and hateful religion. Even the Quran has been interpreted using this corrupt material. Thus even corupting the message of our Holy Book. As soon as he went against the Hadith and Sunnah the Gulf states launched a propaganda war against him and even hired scholars to try and prove his miracle findings wrong! He was later assasinated in Arizona, his killers were not found but I know where my major suspicions lie. My knowledge of this is quite limited and if I do start explaining it all to you myself I'll be here all night. But if you visit www.submission.org/miracle. You will find loads of information on every aspect of Islam and I'm sure your ill feelings towards Islam will be aleviaited.

ridwan,
the sikhs have lived through many periods of genocide- and we have survived and prospered through these periods and have become stronger and prouder than ever. if you think we can't handle your batch of islamic sissies- get real.

to the people who made this site;

you guys i think you did a great job this sikh site .

To Ridwan,

Im afraid to let you down, but I do not hate muslims; judging from my language, any one can see I am pissed off at the massive injustices Sikhs have had to face, still face today and shall face forever; that's part of human nature, isn't it? And no, I do not 'glorify' myself, but glorify God Almighty, only whom is worthy. You seem to have been offended and took it the wrong way.
Ill tell you who is really hateful; muslims who drive around on holy days shouting obscenities at not just Sikhs, but Whites, Hindus, Christians, especially Jews. Hate groups like hizb-au-tahir, khilafah, al-muharijou who say (see speeches of abu hamza, self-proclaimed soldier of God) they are gonna go to war on all 'kaffirs', convert or die, women and children included; Ive heard their speeches. And what about your taliban buddies helping you in kashmir who threw out Sikhs from Afghanistan and destroyed the historic Gurudwara in Kabul? The fact is the muslim nation is repeating what it seems best in doing; genocide. I refuse to hate any muslim who does not hate me for being a Sikh; like a Punjabi singer once said, ' If they come at you with flowers, go to them with flowers'. I cant think of one Sikh organization which has spread anti-muslim feeling; if there is, please inform me. At all Nagar Kirtan's (Sikh processions), speakers consistently and continously stress that we are all human beings, children of God, believers of God and that all prophets deserve respect. Gurbani demands us to resist only oppressors, not to hate anyone, keep goodwill (Chardi Kala) among all, and to conduct ourselves as Sant-Sipahi's (Saint-Soldiers), not to kill unjustly, not to rape, not to rob. Gurbani says, ' Hear me all- God is only realised through Love'. I shall abide by these.
You reply the way you do because you do not know fully of what has happened and still happens.
And to say 2 billion shall turn on us and wipe us out is absolutely funny. The moghul muslims tried military solutions to the 'Sikh problem', as did the british, the hindus, and the afghans. Yet, the Sikhs are still here. Do you know how bad the holocausts of the last 450 years have been? Sikhs are not afraid of anyone, and for your case, least of all the global islamic nation. We dont want, need or crave your help. We are slaves of india, and your country, pakistan, but we would rather die than get your help or sympathy; only then can we feel free. Like that song Puth Jattan De goes-
'The sons of LIONS are waiting on the hills calling all the goats, with swords made of gold slung over their shoulders
The sons of LIONS are prepared to die for their nation and these braves shall die laughing at death'.
Think about it.

Pyare Ridwan Ji:
Sikhs in 47 were not behind most
of the Muslim killings in Punjab.
Infact I suggest that you consult
western sources instead of Pakistani
/Muslim sources which are just
trying to stir up hatred against
Sikhs and make you adopt Urdu and
leave Punjabi roots behind. Most
of the people behind the killings
on the Indian side were Hindus and
on the Pakastani side it was the
Muslims ofcourse. Do not forget
that many Sikhs hid and helped
Muslims out. I know personally,
because it is told that my family
helped out a Muslim family.
So cut the nonsense.
Also it does not matter if Hindus
and both Muslims join forces against
Sikhs. We survived Mughal forces
before we were even a religion;
we can definatley survive now.

To Ridwan on Friday, May 12, 2000 - 04:33 pm:,

Sikhs are not doomed it appears to be you mullahs who are doomed. Seeking outside help from who ever you can. Can't even get a kashmir from hindus even with help from all the jihadis and arab petro dollars. Shame shame. Sikhs do not need your help, even as last resort we will not ask for mullah help, thats how much we HATE you. How come there are no mullahs in indian punjab yet they are in every other indian state.

well Taj,

I like how you glorify yourself and make it seem that arabs have dreams about Sikhs. Get real. You are just a slave under Hindu rule. How do you expect to survive with Muslims and Hindus as your enemy. If you are so ignorant that you would stereotype the entire Islamic Ummah, then no Muslim will ever come to your cry if India or Pakistan invade you. Just face it, without Hindus of Muslims on your side, you are doomed. Youshould respect all religions like your Gurus taught, but if you hate Muslims and Hindus, the 2 billion will get together to wipe out the enemy, before of course turning on each other. India is the enslaver of many nations, but what right did the Khalistanis have to kill innocent Hindus and Muslims?

Daljit

What is this? Come of it! If the girl wants a tattoo on her lower back thats her prerogative. It is personal why get involved in someones likes and dislikes?
Why bother about what she does with herself? Dont you think you are being a wee bit unfair here? We must live and let live. Why be judgemental? Shouldn't we leave judgement to God, our creator who has every right to judge? Why is everybody so taken up by this? I dont seem to understand. Can someone please enlighten me?

taj, you got it.

Taj,

Can you give proof of "apne" girls(do you mean Sikh girls?) being kidnapped by muslims in Pakistan? waht are you talking about?

And Talking about honor killings: So tell us again what happened to Sikh superemo Bibi Jagir Kaur's daughter? Wud you tell us why she is killed by her own mother?

I agree though that if Sikhs want Khailstan it should be their independent decision, not becuz Muslims are interested in buffer zone or they hate Hindus for Blue Star.

Anon_

pakistani's should stay the hell away from the issue of Khalistan. Of course, the bloodthirsty muslims are causing trouble in Punjab by pretending (how filthy and insulting) to be concerned for our wellbeing after all that has happened. So concerned they are that I always get concerned and my blood boils when I hear of these abductions and kidnappings of apne girls across the border from pakistan by muslim pimps who I hear triumphantly return to their 'pinds' as honourable rogues because they picked up a 'kaffir', 'infidel' or 'non-believer' in islamic terminology. This appears to make it alright as an ordinary act and the Sikh girls are sold onto customers around the world, the majority of whom are filthy, dirty pervert sheikhs from arab countries. Yet, muslim girls are forced to stay within the four walls of the home, must be married at age 12 and must be denied the right to education. Any deviation from these 'norms' (call them 'norms'?) results in brothers, husbands and fathers killing their own flesh and blood in the name of islam, known as 'honour killings'. Freedom of woman is 'dishonourable', but pimping non-muslim girls is 'honourable'. Wow !!! I ought to go there !!!
But Sikhs should still demand Khalistan as it is the only way for the survival of our people and our dharam; without it, we are facing extinction. How can some of you still idolise india as our eternal home when we have seen it time and time again that if left in Northern hindu brahmin hands, the establishment of a truly democratic, truly religiously secular india is as about as possible as man travelling at light speed across the universe ? My point is we have already exhausted all avenues and witnessed another great crisis for Sikhi for which there is no compensation coming. A free Khalistan where Sikhs feel protected from hindu and muslim bloodlust, where our religion will attempt to usher in the Kingdom Of God, and where all non-Sikhs will feel protected. We did act like this when Shere Punjab, Maharaja Ranjit Singh ruled over hindus and muslims; high post jobs, respect for religion and of human rights for both peoples were top of his agenda. You are misguided to suggest we remain in india; as Sant Bhindranvale said, Sikhs are the slaves of india. We know of our rights. india is still a country where Sikh girls are being raped, peoples homes are being burned, youngsters in their thousands are being killed in encounters by government death squads, govt. sponsored terrorist fronts and police forces, where a hindu can get away with anything and a Sikh cannot, and where if a hindu dies, investigations and national outcrys are immediate results, yet when Sikhs die in their thousands, no-one gives a ****. Mere dhosto, there is so much, much more to this. Is this a country worth dying for if your blood is valued at such a level ? I dont think so. Sikhs should support Khalistan without pakistan, beware of the intentions of both hindus and muslims, and live in Chardi Kala. It is just the insult of us being used in this tug of war by both sides, and of pakistanis supporting us.
And ridwan, dont use these facts as a justification for your next argument. God Bless.

I see Sanjit,

By saying kashmir wants freedom, you must think i mean Khalistan, either that or you are dislexic and read Khalistan instead of Khalistan.

Was that conference you attended the Jamaat conference. every anti-khalistan brings up that conference and how Sikhs were being confused. What a Coinkidink!

Whether or not you went, how does the statements of non-khalistanis change you feelings? If they were khalistanis, then I copuld understand a bit, though i dont see their reluctance to mention Islam as a pretext for a change in political status.Why do you not mention the tens of thousands of Muslims killed by Sikhs in 47? the same reason they didnt mention it that 'conference", so no hard feelings would be set! You can forget 84, but you turn on Islam and your political beliefs after one conference which you probably didnt even attend!

"Sikhism is for all humanity."
"Sikhism has its historic roots both in Pakistan and India."

Both above statements are true.

Anon_

Sanjit .

You went to a Sikh youth conference ??There ? Why??

You are speaking a load of rubbish .What were you doing there ??
Stop this hatred against anyone .

Sat Sr Kal

Dear anon...where did i say Sikhs dont support the idea of Khalistan?? U r having illusions. Yes their r Sikhs who support Khalistan..and let me tell u anon i used to be 1 of them. That is until i went to pakistan a few years ago. I went to a Sikh youth conference. And their muslims were pushing their ideas for khalistan. My GOD i was disgusted. Hindus did this, Hindus do that. Nothing about what they the muslims did. Nothing about the millions that were slaughtered by them..nothing at all. Yes i was hardcore khlaistani. Although my Parents werent. U see every1 on that trip suffered humilation by muslims. Denying what they did. One speaker even went on to say the mughuls were their to help Sikhism to flourish. I and a thousand other of my brothers were depply insulted by these remarks. Thats is why i got into reality. Sikhism doesnt belong to Hinduism. It is totally independant. But i do agree their are similarties. And ridwan.. i suggest u keep politics out of this. This isnt about kashmir, so dont come begging here to ask for freedom of kashmir. Ever ssince u have started to post messages on here ridwan u have been trying to put khalistan at the front of all your topics. Ill tell u 1 thing...u will not spilt us Sikhs. Long live India. The holy soil that i would give my blood for.

WaheGuru Ji Fateh
WaheGuru Ji Khalsa

Ridwan

That Sanjit has a lot of alaisis so don't concern yourself with him.Thats is latest name to confuse the issue.Sikhs have long memories .

The truth is as Anon told you .We have sympathy for all people and affinity with Pakistan because of the Gurus .

Sat Sri Kal

Yes Sikhism is a universial religion...but every religion has its own roots from where it was developed. Sikhism was developed in India. And that is our home. Their used to be no such country as pakistan..our religion was all in India. Thats why our Gurdwaras r their. And yes i have Hindu friends, and why should i hate Hinduism. Just because i hate islam doesnt mean i should hate Hinduism. Punjabi Kuri i dont know where u come from...but i rather have my sister marry a Hindu...then a muslim. And that applies to most Sikh familys. I know that for a fact. Sikhs and muslims will never like each other. Yes their were Sikh Hindu riots in 1984....and i think the ppl behind it should be hanged. It was terrible what happened to the Sikh community...but Hindus were also killed. But i shall never forget what the dirty mughuls did to us. And by the way ridwan its Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

WaheGuru Ji Fateh
WaheGuru Ji Khalsa

Also Sanjit,

I was always taught Nanakji never fought for any nation. I heard he just fought for the truth without weapons. If im not mistaken, which I may be, didnt the idea of the Khanda come up during the last Gurus time?

Wasalaam,
Ridwan

SAnjit,

Nice way to explode. I dont care if you hate Hindus or love them, but my say is:

If there is Sikh-Hindu Bhai Bhai, despite the past,
Why not Sikh-Muslim Bhai Bhai? I have no hate for any other person.

By the ways, my father come from kashmir, and i feel kashmir deserves FREEDOM. PLease dont reject kashmir, you all know how it feels. Kashmir has been raped from both sides, why not give us Azadi? We need it.

Wasalaam,
Ridwan Khan

Why is it when people say that their religion is universal and then limit it by saying it comes from a certain region whether it be India or Pakistan? My next question is why are Pakistanis in favor of Khalistan? I think it provides them with a buffer zone.

Sanjit kakay,

Show me where did I support Khalistan in my post? You are so lame that you are in denial to accept that there are some genuine Sikhs who want Khalistan similar to as there are some genuine Sikhs who really really want India. Come out of your denial and in terms with the reality.
Sikhism belongs to humanity...not to India, Pakistan or Khailstan but yes we have as much roots in Pakistan as in India. In a way both are our mother lands.

An also, your latter two posts make no sense what so ever. Try to think before you write.

PK, I agree with most of what you said. I don't hate Indians or Hindus and there are some Indian I like very much, that does not mean I have to hate Pakistan and Muslims. I have plenty of Pakistanis who are friends and I repsect their right to practice their religion and I respect the existence of their country. Two thumbs up for them.

Anon_

Listen,
Pakistan was inteneded for Muslims after the partition. This partition was done by the politicians, not all the people wanted it. I find it really ironic how Sikhs don't like Muslims because of the past history. If you can't like Muslims then you cannot like Hindus either. You are just turning a blind eye to what they have done. We should not hate anyone as a people, but hate the governments who have caused all of this turmoil to happen.
Lastly, do I need to remind you that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born in Talwandi, which is in Pakistan and Guru Ram Das Ji was born in Lahore. We also have many Gurudwaras there.
Your arguement again does not hold up.

SAT SRI KAL

Thank u for your support brother. We Sikhs should stick together and fight for India. This is where our religion came from....this is the most holiest place on the planet. Instead of fighting for khalistan or in between castes we should unite...if we did no 1 could stop India being the greatest country on the planet. Remeber this Sikhs r everywhere in India..not just in Punjab. I have been to Gurdwaras in Tamil Nadu, Rajasthan, West Bengal, Kashmir, Goa, and much more. Dont split our country, or ull split our religion.

WaheGuru Ji Fateh
WaheGuru Ji Khalsa

SAT SRI KAL
Sanjit

Sikh history is rooted in India and in Punjab. If u forgot let me remind u pakistan was intended for muslims. It is an islamic republic. This has nothing to do with politics. U r right India is a country for many religions including Hindus, Jains, and Buddhists. Yes u r right Sikh history is rooted in pakistan as well as that belonged to India as well. So therefore my argument does hold up. Yes u r absoultely right again i dont speak on behalf of the Sikh community. I am just telling u the facts. Remember who Bhagat Singh fought for. But at the end of the day India is our home......and we will defend it by the sword if need be.

WaheGuru Ji Fateh
WaheGuru Ji Khalsa

Hi Sanjit I totally agree with your views and support them. There are some strange, foreign born Sikh children spreading their hate on these pages because they are unaware of our true heritage and our contemporary world. Me and most of my family and friends agree with your views.

How can you say that Sikhism was born out of India. It is a part of present day India, but Punjab at one point was a seperate country and Sikh history is also roooted in Pakistan. Therefore, your arguement does not hold up.
A Sikh is free to choice to be anti or pro-India. That does not make them anymore or anyless Sikh. This is all about politics, which in essense has nothing to do with religion.
My opinion, is that no country belongs to anyone. India belongs to Sikhs and to Hindus as much as it does to Muslims. But realistically, as long as minority groups are supressed or are denied their identity (by attempts such as assimilation) they will remain unhappy, whether it is in the diaspora community or back home.
Your patriotism is your business. You cannot speak on behalf of the Sikh community. I think until their is some sort of a survey, no one has the right to.
By the way anon, I think your estimates were pretty good.

Sanjit

SAT SRI KAL

I have seen a lot of rubbish on this page lately. U jokers ridwan, anon and wolves student. I come from Handsworth which has probably 1 of the largest Punjabi communitys outside India. Here the feeling is very pro India..as it should be. Guru Gobind Singh didnt fight for khalistan but for India. This is the country from our religion was born. It is our mother country. Those who fight against India r killing our own Mother. I suggest u get your facts right ridwan. The mughuls ethnically cleansed our ppl, on a scale that has never been matched. What happend in 1984 was terrible, Gandhi was a *****, but this was also caused by pakistanis. Every Sikh who comes here and supports khalistan is shooting themselves. Remember India is our country...as well as Hindus. Dont u dare try to make Sikh fight against Sikh or Hindu against Sikh ridwan or any1 else for that matter.

Anon has it right .Ridwan and critic.We have lots of Pakistani mates .

hi i think this is a very good web site

ANON YOUR GUESSIMIT WAS QUITE ACCURATE

Ridwan: My answer is going to be at the best a guesstimate but may help you in basing your views in a more realistic manner.

5-10% of Sikhs worldwide support the idea of Khalistan from their heart and believe that is the only way for Sikhism to survive in the long run.Another 5-10% are hard core Anti-Khalistani and will probably lay their lives to stand for that. Rest is just confused and changes its views as the wind blows. None of the first two groups have a chance if third majority ignores both groups.

about 5-10% of Sikhs feel a deep rooted enimosity towards Pakistan and Muslims in general which is based partly upon their misinterprestation of history or their political views at the moment. 5-10% are in love with Pakistan or at least with Punjabis of Pakistan and rest fall soemwhere in between.

90-95% of Sikhs dislike the Indian Govt.'s actions pertaining to Bluestar and Delhi riots. rest don't have any self respecta nd will do anything for their perosnal political or some other kind of gain so they don't matter.

Do most Sikhs upport the idea of khalistan? Do most Sikhs feel anmity towards pakistan? Do most Sikhs also dislike the Indian govt for the riots, blue star, and black thunder? If so, please respond.

Thanks,
Ridwan Khan

Daljit i dont think you should care about people like that do they will grow out of it.
These days where ever you go people have khanda flags, t'shirts even ladies suits, i think it's really silly this symbol is to be respected.

Hey Daljit, are you complaining about the location of the tatto or existence of it at all.(Did she actually show it to you? what were you doing checking her behind? You dirty guy..lucky son of a mother:-)). What you say if she had it in the front just below her 'dhunni'and just above...ahem ahem?

I think that khanda tatto is cute....very exciting:-)

-Shugali

Well Daljit,
I think that you are going to have to sit down and think about whether or not you telling this girl off will do anygood. Some people are stubborn, and no matter how many times you may tell them something, they are not willing to listen because they are to deeply immersed in their ego.
Also think about the way in which you would want to tell her off and what would be the most effective manner. Is it best to use a strong commanding voice with her, or is it best to talk to her politely and rationally? In addition, when you do confront her make sure that you use good evidence to back up what you are saying... I hate it when someone tells me what or what not to do and cannot provide me with a solid reason why I should or should not.
If you have alot of friends (this is bad advice) then you guyz should just start cutting her up. But this is not the best advice... but if she really bugs you then just harass her... I did that too this girl in highschool once and she shut up for like eternity. But this is a really mean thing to do... and you may have consequences... ie. her man might come after you... etc etc you get the point.
However, I think that no matter what you tell this girl she is not going to back down. You can try all you want- but if she is stubborn, then consider her set in her ways. Tell her what you think once and if she doesn't listen then move on. Also end of the conversation with a comment that will leave her thinking. Maybe she won't admit she's wrong to you... but she might think about what you have to say. Anyways, if she doesn't listen... move on...you can't waste your whole life over a loser.
p.s.- I think you should be more concerned about the turban comment. Next time she disses your turban you should tell her off. I would not expect this kind of behaviour from a Punjabi... maybe from a kala or a gora... but a Sikh girl that's screwed. If I saw that girl I'd be like "Girl... not only are you whitewashed... but damn you are thrown thru the dryer"... sorry... just had to say that!!!
Hope this helps...

Dear Sunny Singh
I can not stand by and do nothing......i can not stand by and watch my religion be seen on someones behind.....

Daljit, this reminds me of a story I once heard:

There once was a tired man walking with his donkey towards the town. His donkey was exhausted because it was hauling several pounds of wheat. The strange thing was the bag of wheat was tied to a rope and balanced with a counterweight(sandbag). A passerby noticed and made a comment. He said, "Maybe if you take the bag of wheat and divide it into two, then your donkey may go on further. The exhausted man asked, "how much do you make?" The passerby said, "What you see is all I have." The exhausted man replied, "Keep your fancy theories to yourself, it seems they aren't working for you!" The passerby shook his head and walked on.

Fools never listen. She will realize on her own. Just try to be the best you can be.

I HAVE A PROBLEM......their is a female punjabi attending the same skool as i am. She has a KHANDA tatoo on her lower back, above her bottom. I have explained and also told her off many times, but she is ignorant and starts to say "Your mom....." "Ypur dad...." "im gonna unwrap your turbun...." (shes punjabi too). Being the only turbun punjabi at skool. i stuck up for the KHANDA many times. WHAT CAN I SAY/DO TO CONVINCE HER THAT SHE IS WRONG........ outta the 40 punjabiz at skool. 20 can speak punjabi<---hahaha thats Pathetic............

Happy Vaisakhi to everyone out there.

This also reminds me of something else and it's that I have been posting here for almost a year. This is ridiculous.

It was about the same time last year when I wished Happy 300th Vaisakhi to all the Sikhs out and a girl Jassi didn't like and wished Happy Vaisakhi to all the Indians.

Goodmorning to all; been reading through all the comments made by everyone re: sikh/hindu/muslims. Not pointing any fingers - I think all of you should read the Granth/Geeta/Kuran etc.. again. Nowhere in these holy books is there any compairson between one religion to another. Granth Sahbji teaches of both Hindu and sikh religion, because sikhism evolved from Hindism. Same goes with Muslims and Christians. If you read all the religious books or documents out there, they all have the same story, same believes, same ideas etc. But I have yet to come upon one that says hate people, don't associate with people that do not believe in your religion. When a child is born, he/she is not born with a religion. We are human beings first, made of the same material. Read your religion, understand it to the fullest, everyone will have slightly a different view but if you listen carefully you all will be saying the samething, but pharsing it differently. One last thing, if any of you have kids or will have them in the future, don't preach to them about how you persieve religion and sociaty, give them the BOOK and let them come to their own conclusion.

we're sikh we never fear

Hey don't forget the Punjabi Muslims either!!!

Sat Sri Kal, Namaste

I have only just discovered this web site know...and found it to be very interesting. However i am sad to see SOME of the views given. First of all Daljit i am quite shocked at what u r saying. I have quite a few friends that r Sardars...but we do not feel any kind of shame chilling together. I am suprised u said this. Secondly Punjabi Kuri i am a Punjabi Hindu and feel upset with some of what u have said about Hindus...but i guess quite a lot of what u said was true. The 1984 massacre was a disgrace. And the culprits should have been hanged. I cant even believe how this attrocity was commited against our own brothers. I am a Punjabi Hindu and have myself actually never met another Punjabi Hindu.....but all my Indian friends r Sikh...and their is no difference between us. I dont understand why ppl try to drive a wedge between us. Their is nothing to separate us. We go to each others homes and we all know each others Parents. We seem all as Aunties and Uncles....typical Punjabi!!! What im saying is...that u just cannot distinguise between Punjabi Sikhs or Punjabi Hindus. For instance when i meet other ppl... at first every1 thinks im Sikh...the culture is exactly the same. I admit a lot to do with the fights has to do with Hindus.....i was shocked to read Punjabi Hindus where saying Hindi is their first language....i was disgusted. We should all unite......cuz we r all1.

WHAAT!!!!!!!!!

Sort out your grammar

Nahang Sahib, if pardesi are modern to "protect their insecurities" then why are Sikhs in Punjab cutting their hair. You said "we don't need to be accepted". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Sikh a community as well. So aren't you asking for acceptance? If one doesn't need acceptance, why would he used the word "We".

Sat Sri Akal my brothers,

We need to keep the faith as it was originally laid down by God to Guru Nanak.

Designer ware and all that stuff is just a front to hide the insecurities people feel about themselves. Cultureless individuals who have adopted a foreign way of living just to be accepted. We dont need to be accepted - we are what we are - period. We do not have to prove anything to anyone.

The khalsa Panth will always reign, we're pure Sikhs we never fear. The Nahung phauja laid down the foundation of our warrior blood which will always remain running through our viens like the waters of Punjab. The warrior saints of Akal Purkh ki Phauj will protect us forever.

Vaiha guru ji ka Khalsa Vaiha guru ji ki fathae.

I agree with you Daljit.
But do not lose heart... there are many ppl who'll accept you as you are.
In my uni I see sardars hanging around all sorts of ppl... and I have a sardar friends who I hang out with in school sometimes.
So ignore the few idiots who seem ashamed

and one more thing------> DOES NE ONE NO Y GLUE DONT STICK INSIDE THE BOTTLE

I am a male sikh with a turbun........the one thing i dont understand is that in many Punjabiz populated areas where punjabiz are the majority like SURREY BC, CANADA......why are the non-turbun sikhs ashamed of beening with turbuned kids........most of the time theyll hang together but inside they like the person but not his turbun......why.....then were always thinkin that we are losing our identity.......we ourselves are cutting our hair.......drinkin......smokin up------> i my self have not tried n e of them......but the thing is why are sikhs in the WESTERN WORLD losing the battle.....of our rich culture.....to this media culture.....moderate vs fundimenatlists....hahaha makes me laugh were all moderates.....but it is the REAL SIKHZ who believe in the GURU GRANTH SAHIB and the teachings of GURU JI who should tell the ppl tryin to change the religion that why should religion change because of your personal needs....why does your expensive suit matter more then the teachings of the GURU.......email me if u agree, disagree or jus email me MAHARAJA- at - KHALSA.COM

IT WAS THE LATTER,ASH.
IN INDIAN HELD KASHMIR WHERE THERE ARE 700.000 TROUPS.

ON FULL ALERT

The massacre of 40 Sikhs in Jammu and Kashmir is a tragedy, but also a mystery. It is unlear who was behind this evil act. But there are only two real possibilities.
1) The attack was committed by Pakistani forces or pro Pakistani 'Islamic' militants. The Hindu Pundit community has already been targeted on several occassions. It would have been solely for the purpose of driving out all non-Muslims from Jammu and Kashmir. As unlike some Muslim Kashmiris, the non-Muslim Kashmiris cannot be inticed by 'Islamic' propaganda. Also Pakistan has little love for non-Muslims anyway. In Pakistan itself non-Musims suffer attacks and prejudice on a daily level. Many are attacked and killed in the presence of police who do nothing to protect them.
2) Secondly, this could be the work of the Indian armed forces. They may have staged this massacre to step up the preesure on the international community to have Pakistan declared a terrorist state. If this is the case, it means that India is willing to sacrifice innocent people to achieve its political goals. Also it would be a further example of Indian brutality in the state. We must not forget that a legitimate freedom struggle is being brutally surpressed in Jammu and Kashmir.
An investigation should be launched immediately to uncover whoever was behind this. The guilty party deserves the upmost condemnation.

Gunmen Massacre 36 Sikhs in India's
Kashmir, Police Say

From Associated Press


SRINAGAR, India--Gunmen killed 36 Sikhs in India's northern
state of Jammu and Kashmir late Monday, even as President Clinton
was beginning a visit to the Asian nation, police said.
It was the first major attack on the Sikhs since a Muslim
insurgency began 10 years ago in Kashmir. Both India and Pakistan
claim the Himalayan territory and have fought two wars over it.
Clinton--who returned to New Delhi, 400 miles to the south, on
Monday evening after a day trip to Bangladesh--had said that
reducing tensions between India and Pakistan was one of his
objectives for the trip.
Indian army officers had said earlier that they expected a major
operation by pro-separatist militants to draw attention to Kashmir
during Clinton's visit. Many Kashmiris were anticipating that the
president's visit would lead to a breakthrough in the long deadlock
on Kashmir's future.
Gunmen entered the village of Chati Singhpura Mattan after dark
Monday and forced the residents from their homes, police officials
said on condition of anonymity.
They segregated the men from the women, announcing that they
were conducting a "crackdown." Then the gunmen opened fire on
the men, killing 36 of them.


Mmm, Once again.

You said "Nah.... I ain't getting touch... " I don't need to know your intimate life.

Nah.... I ain't getting touch... I just LOVE a good debate... it really gets your mind flowing.
Secondly, get it straight. If you want ME to talk to YOU directly then you can contact me via email. That is your descision.

PK by the way you said "A person acts irrationally when you hit a nerve." I guess i hit your nerves every second;)

PK, give me some time to recollect my thoughts. You are right; today I am sensitive. I just finished shaving this morning with my Mach 3 for sensitive skin:)

Errrccchhh... are we a bit sensitive today Sunny. Seems like I really hit the spot. A person acts irrationally when you hit a nerve. Just as you have in your last post.
I never implied that you are a simple person... so don't take my words and twist them. I actually do have a Hindu in my family, who is a Bhamini and I have no problem with her because she is not a fundementalist freak. And I have also told you before that one of my good friends is Gujrati. She knows that I do not agree with her religion and she does not agree with mine. But we really don't talk about that. Also, on my political views. She knows them too and agrees. So there we have no problem.
If I had kids on day, I would encourage them to marry a Sikh. However, I know that they may not and I am willing to accept it. So please don't try to catergorize me as a racist, because honestly I am not.
Secondly, I am not weak, insecure or pathetic. I have my convictions and I am proud of them. In fact, my views go counter to those of society's, so if I was really weak I would side with the norms of punjabi society.
Moreover, you can believe what you want about me. If you think I am uneducated or stupid, then believe what you want. However, I think you just can't stand being put in your place.
P.S-Man I don't wear diapers... I wear Depends cuz I am so elderly... my God, boy you truly need to lighten up!!!

Pk, I believe that people are the product of their insecurities up to point. If you think I'm that simple you have underestimated me. I thought you were intelligent and I even said so; i take it back. You are weak and insecure, but i won't play on those weaknesses, because there's no need. It's funny how you talk about caste integration and then hate hindus. What if your cousin was hindu Jatt? Child you need to change your diaper and come back when you grow up. Mind games are for adolecents, not for mature people. If you want to talk truly directly, I will contact you.

Hey Lahori Munda thanx. I think though, that I can be quite stubborn at times though... but thanks for the compliment anyways. You seem to be quite level headed yourself.

Sunny how do I have a contradictory personality??? My views are firm and I never change them unless someone shows me that I am wrong. What may seem contradictory to you is when I change my point of view because someone has proved me wrong. Unlike you, I do admit my faults, since I believe this is the key to growing as a person. I have admitted that I have been a bit rash in judging all Hindu people, but don't think this means that I have changed my point of view where politics are concerned.
In addition, I am not a coward and quite frankly I am offended that you would even suggest so. However, if that is your opinion of me then I really am not going to waste my time trying to prove otherwise. I couldn't care less of what you think of me, so to hell with you (excuse the expression). Moreover, I said the bit about you not being a real man, cuz, honestly I wanted to see what you would say. You always talk like you "da man" (atleast you try to project yourself as such). And I knew that you would get offended, cuz I can tell by your personality. Furthermore, I really don't need a mans protection, cuz I can take care of my own problems.
And please, in the future, be as blunt and as rude as you want. I ain't scared of you, and I am not going to even bat an eyelash when you try to diss me.

Lahori Munda, Congratulations, "Number lageya!"

PK, I do protect women, however, your personality is completely contradictory to what would envision a woman to be. Therefore, since I don't really know if you're a woman, I will treat you like a man. North American women complain about not being considered equal to men in this society, but when we give them the chance one's like you want to be pampered. Sorry but you have no relation to me so I'll treat you like you treat me. Don't think you can get away with bashing guys and expect they won't bash back. Of course this is an interesting media in that most of those that talk here display cowardice in the real world, but I rarely faulter, my personality is the same wherever. In fact in the real world with me, "Saap they morae diva ni balda!"

To Punjabi Kuri.

Well done! I am very proud of you.

Having read the discussions on these pages over last few months, your comments really stand out. I am very pleased to read that you are doing a very good job in standing by your views and puttting in their places some of the ignorant and prejudiced people on here. I believe if everyone adhered to your principles and values the world would be a better place. There is enough hatred and grief in this world, maybe now is the time to to address this misery in order to make a better world for coming generations. What difference does it make whether we are hindu,sikh,muslim,jew or christian, are we not all humans. When a child comes into this world it is devoid of religion, the label of creed is stuck on by its family. Our aim in life should be to work together and make a better world for all.

Khuda Hafiz
Rab Rakka

Maqbool Rafique

Me... competitive... HELL NO!!! Nah, I am not competitive at all. I am also the one who first coined the phrase that there are no winners or losers in a arguement, so don't steal my phrase.
Sweep up the floor with me... ha ha ha... that is funny. Trust me boy, I'd put you in your place your place if I ever saw you. You would be so embarassed that you'd go running to mommy.
Also, tuwanu sharam nahi aandi??? fighting with a girl and all. If you were a true jatt or for that matter a real man(I don't believe in castes but I am using it to explain a point to you), like you claim you are you would protect women, not insult them. You would not have to insult them to make yourself feel superior.

PK, I am competitive, as if you're not. I don't believe in win or loss though. Everyone loses in degenerative arguments. But in anything else in life, I'd wipe the floor with you.

sunny:
i meant manifesting itself. And you have quite an ego, my dear, I think it is high time that you deal with it.

Nah I don't hate all hindus... only fundementalist ones... so sorry I don't fit into your little hate club. Maybe you and sunny should hook up though... cuz both of you got enough hate that you could keep talking about it for centuries.
And if you read my past posts carefully I am objecting to the atrocities commited against the Sikhs and I am just questioning Hindu society. I mean, if I saw this kind of injustice committed against any group I'd be the first one to speak out against. The question I ask, is what kind of society would allow such things to happen, and why has justice not been sought.
In addition, anon I have never implied that I am a saint. In fact, I am far from it. I do not view myself as a "Saviour" or a "Leader" like some people do on this forum.
Sunny, you must be really itching to see my get one-upped. Guess it's your competitive winner takes all attitude which is manifesting yourself. However, I think you'll have to wait a long time to see me lose. Stay tuned brother, maybe the day will come....

To anon, "ch ch boom" You just shot down PK.

To Punjabi Kuri on Monday, March 13, 2000 - 09:58 pm:,

So does that imply you are the only saint on this discussion group ? From your past posts it appears to me that you are not terribly fond of hindus. So join the hate club.

Let's get this straight... you hate sulleh... some sulleh hate sikhs... some sikhs hate hindus... some hindus hate muslims and sikhs... whites think their superior and blacks think they are the bomb... and we all just keep fighting....
Wow! What a beautiful world.... filled with beautiful people.