heres the Site of Pakistan Tehrik-e-Insaaf(imran Khans party)

www.insaf.org.pk

About teh parties,

people like Imran Khan will take over, being that they are new and not of the old powers, but that doesnt mean He will take over, hes merely the best known.

His party is the Tehrik-e-Insaaf, and stands for the privitization of Pakistan, getting rid of interest, honor killings, and instilling Pakistan with Sharia and making it more islamic, while creating a strong national bank. Personally, i like this, but hes a cricket player, not a politician.

WEll Tarun,

The Balochis had Afghanistan and the Soviet Union backing them, so it was international.

About India and pakistan,ive been to both, and teh average Pakistani is better off than the average Indian. Pakistan is catchin up on the IT stuff, 30 million dollars(or ruppees) has been set for IT training, and Pakistans channel 3 has been dedicated to IT stuff.


about the Khalistan stuff, i stopped at a Dhaba(i think that what you guys call them), and there were men talking ahbout Khalistan, and they said that most Punjabis would like Khalistan, but are waiting for a real leader to restart the movement.
As for border trade, I think India and Pakistan will go to war, and never be friends. I think once they almost destroy themselves, they should live in peace, but have no contacts or trade or alliances. India and Pakistan were not meant to be friends.

Ridwan,

The difference between India's Kashmir problem and the one you had with Balochistan is,that Kashmir has the backing of Pakistan. Hence,it has an international country backing it.

Ridwan,

I don't want to get into which country is better - that is a foolish discussion.
But what I will say is this - both Governments of India and Pakistan are more "bark" than "bite". I don't think they'll ever go to a full fledged war again.
What Pakistan should concentrate on is strengthening it's economy. I,personally, believe trade between Indo-Pak is beneficial to both countries.
Pakistan should take a leaf out of India's books,and jump on the IT bandwagon. Look how many Indians there are in Silicon Valley - Pakistan are missing out in that aspect.

As for Imran Khan - well, I read that article a while ago now. But,it went along the lines of "with Bhutto gone, Sharif behind bars etc etc" ... "Musharaff will get rid off much of the corruption in Pakistani Politics" ... "people like Imran Khan [new faces] might become big political players"

Btw, what's his party called again ? Tehriat-e-Insaaf ? (<--- is that right)

As for sikhs and Pakistan - nahhhh. Don't think so. Khalistani sikhs are abroad only,and even then, all 'firangi' sikhs aren't Khalistani.

Tarun.

I have a question:

I hear all this talk of Khalistan and India, but do any SIKHS advocate the idea of the accension of Punjab to Pakistan? Do any Sikhs think Pakistan is better than India due to the high numbers of Punjabis?

Jat,

What you think is going on goes on in Punjab. Pakistan is not punjab and vice versa, and most of Pakistan follows the Pashtun view of this subject.

Tarun,

The article said

"Sharma said: "It appears that it was a desperate attempt on the part of foreign intelligence agencies to revive Sikh militancy in a big way. Had the consignment reached the right hands, it would have led to the revival of militancy in Punjab."

It does say it was desperate attempt, but it acknowledges that it would have led to the revival of militancy in the Punjab, so i think i was right.

Pakistan may have fanned the rebellion, but it was the East Punjabis who carried it out, and it was the Indian govt. that fueled it by mass human rights abuses.

If tiny and poor Pakistan can cause so much trouble in India, and on such a wide scale, then I think Pakistan is the much more superior one. India has only suceeded in creating ethnic tensions, but never a full-fledged rebellion.

How could Pakistan crush the Balochi-Marxists who rose up in Makran, but India, with its much bigger army, cant crush a rebellion in a tiny nation like Kashmir, or naxalbari, or the NE?


When Musharraf reinstates democracy, which i hope he does, people like Imran Khan wont take powers. Every Pakistani knows hes a cricket player, and clueless about politics. His supporters are mainly those who are still obsessed with him. Small Parties like the Tarik-e-Islah, Hizbul Khalq, MQM, Awami Party, and so forth will take center stage. The PPP has lost its leader to exile, the Muslim League has fallen apart.

Personally, i dont think 2 more years can solve much. Either these parties established in Malaysia and Turkey take over, or the jamaat-e-Islami makes revolution(they never win any seats, so out of frustration, they openly advocate revolution. Youth often attend rallies as a social meeting rather than a meeting for support).

This page fo Indian rights abuses absolutely disguists me, and makes me wonder how some Sikhs dont support Kashmiri secession:

http://www.maboli.com/Sikh_HR/Picture_Gallery/1984_Riots_6.html

A whole new probe of the Dehli massacres at:

http://www.maboli.com/Sikh_HR/

Ridwan,

Actually the article said "it was a desperate attempt to revive militancy again in the Punjab" ... sorry, but what you are saying about the Indian Government being on the brink is not valid.

I think India is well within it's rights to blame Pakistan for militancy in Panjab. After all, where are the leaders of Babbar Khalsa etc based ?

Your thoughts,
Tarun.


PS:- I was reading an article somewhere,that when Musharaff reinstalls democracy in Pakistan, people like Imran Khan will become major players in the political arena.
Your thoughts on that too ?

well--you have made me smile ridwan--i aint an expert on pak society but u r even less .

i know for a full fact that for identity purposes the fathers tribe or origin counts 100%

hands down.no ifs ands or buts.

whatever the reasons in yr particular household might be,down try to say that a long established fact is not so.
everybody knows that a woman or a mother can get the man or the father to do anything but this is a first.

i have friends of all nationalities but my actual base and identity is jat sikh or punjabi or asian and i am very proud of that fact.i only mean that u r isolated ,in location and some of yr opinions illustrate it coz i aint heard them here from the pakis i know or the many functions for punjabis i have attended or the joint asian papers,t.v. or radio programmes.

Did you all hear that there was a 4.7 quake in Lahore?

Also,
Madeline Albright is planning a trip to KASHMIR!

Ik Jat,

Thanks. Hes not upset at being Pakistan for obvious reason(he coached Pakistans cricket team for one).


Jat,
you sure arent an expert on pakistani society. Of coure the father has more power, but the mother has a large sway over the father and can get it her way.

Im in Ohio, im not sure what you mean by isolated.


From what you described, i like being in a societ without large numbers of one ethnic group. In what you describe, the indians stay with indians, chinese with chinese and so forth. At least here I can befriend anyone. Sure most of my friends are white, and i have no real friends that are from the sub continent, but its not bad.


Tarun,

I heard of that. Sick isnt it? Oh well, too bad they are the backhands in India.

Are you the right-wing Hindu, or a pro-khalistan person?

Readingthat article over the RDX haul, and how it says that if it went off right, it would have restarted militancy in panjab, it makes me realize that the Indian govt knows that is in on the brink. If panjabis were as proud as the govt says, there would have been no chance of reviving militancy in panjab(which absolutely needs wide public supprt), but of course, India blames Pakistan. Sigh.

36 familes also went ot Azad Kashmir from IHK. But according to India and most Indians, Kashmiris hate Pakistan. Stories dont add up, do they?

Ridwan,A JAT,Arjun SD ...

I came across some interesting articles today on www.timesofindia.com

check these webpages out http://www.timesofindia.com/today/16home1.htm This website is about the RSS. Forget all we've been talking about sikhs being sucked into hinduism - these guys are calling for the Indianisation of Islam ! For the term 'kafir' to be abolished in India,and for muslims in India to acknowledge Hindu Gods as part of their ancestry !!!
I was shocked !

Also, on the Khalistan issue , check this page out http://www.timesofindia.com/today/16indi8.htm

(If by chances the links don't work - just visit the site.The RSS bit is on the home page.The Khalistan bit is under the "India" section)

Regards,
Tarun.

very ambiguous comments as to the nature of pak community.

i aint an expert on pakis but i do know that its the fathers side which counts,for identity purposes.
and imran khan has made the same amount of boasts as to his punjabi nay hullundur background as to pathan.
i was at uni.when he wed and there was derision from the pakis for him--young and there old folk.he made some nasty comments about paki women,which even reached pak itself and then they did a programm on him and he was not well recieved at all.

i read somewhere u say that u r in an isolated community in the u.s.a.

as i say the pak/sikh/hindu communities r separate and well defined but theres no belligerence and no they dont consider themselves brits.
there was only 1 paki who was like that at uni and he was not well liked at all by the other pakis.they felt he was a time waster and just stupid.he was like that coz he was given the brush of by an indian girl.there was a couple of afghans who kept themselves to themselves and some syrians who did likewise.the pakis tended to talk to the sikhs and would on occasion,talk to hp.'s.
its a fair large community--so its not ones or twos i am talking about.they went to the hindi cinemas,eateries and melas--even sikh religious ones.
there always a mega mela here once a year for 3 days when all the top indian stars and top acts from pak and bhangra people come over.its televised by zee and bbc and all these 3 sets r there and no friction .
i have been intrigued to ask them about there feelings and they say that the only arab glance they make is to mecca but they r familiar and relate to punjabi and indian culture first.
some of these were away from home and on sundays would go to the local gurdwara for there roti.they wopuld go upstairs and listen to the kirten for a while and then have there roti.
they did not do a mahta terk but they covered there heads and kept quiet.also the smokers were respectful enough to leave there ciggies outside on the trees on the main road. i found all this very strange and but they said that once some of the granthis asked them to help unload some groceries and they asked if it was alright coz they were muslims and they said it was alright for anybody to work.

Ridwan a true Pakhtun is one who practices pakhtunwali, simlpy being born in a Pakhtun family does not make a Pakhtun. Imran Khan is an ass, he spent most of his days years sin and arrogance. I read his autobiography at times i thought he was ashamed to be a Pakistani, refering to his Afghan race. 100 choovay ka kay billi haj noo chali, but i guess its never to late to repent.

"RIDWAN.IF UR MOM IS A PASHTUN AND SHE MARRIED A NON PASHTUN IE UR DAD--HOW COME UR ALWAYS CLAIMING TO BE PASHTUN.

WHAT IS UR DAD THEN.AND ARENT U WHAT HE IS. "

Im not sure what you guys do, but where i come from, we are pashtun and kashmiri or pashtun and sindhi, etc. etc. We dont follow a patriarchal society.

"IMRAN KHAN IS A RUDDY IDIOT AND THE PAKIS HERE DONT LIKE HIM FOR MARRYING A GORIE BUT HE IS ALWAYS PROUD TO BE PUNJABI THO I THINK HE IS PATHAN.ON HIS WEDDING,THEY HAD PUNJABI BOLYAN AND DANCING,HERE AND IN LAHORE. "

He may have grown up Punjabi, but he is proud of his Pashtun heritage, he constantly mentions it in his book "warrior race"

"AS I SAY,THE PAKIS HERE R MOSTLY PUNJABI OR KASHMIRI AND I HAVE TO SAY,ITS THE PUNJABIS WHO LEAD THE FIELD.
AND I AINT SEEN THIS PRO AFGHAN OR ARAB STANCE OR AN ANTI SIKH OR PRO HINDU ONE EITHER COMING FROM THE PAKIS LIKE I HAVE BEEN HEARING HERE. "

Thats probably because they consider themselves more brit than anything. according to what ive been hearing, most of the anti-sikh and anti-hindu stuff is in the UK.


Cassim,

Im sure ive heard of minair, but i cant say i know where it is. My village is near Miandam, north of mingoara, but south of Bahrain. Have you been the Swat or the northern valleys? I think they rival, and even surpass the valleys in Kashmir or India.

pata,

Pashtuns are pathans, who live in the NWFP and Afghanistan.

i don't meen to be rude but what da hell is a pashtan?

pashtan ke a?

Ridwan my auntie is from a village called Minair near Mingora, Swat.

RIDWAN.IF UR MOM IS A PASHTUN AND SHE MARRIED A NON PASHTUN IE UR DAD--HOW COME UR ALWAYS CLAIMING TO BE PASHTUN.

WHAT IS UR DAD THEN.AND ARENT U WHAT HE IS.

IMRAN KHAN IS A RUDDY IDIOT AND THE PAKIS HERE DONT LIKE HIM FOR MARRYING A GORIE BUT HE IS ALWAYS PROUD TO BE PUNJABI THO I THINK HE IS PATHAN.ON HIS WEDDING,THEY HAD PUNJABI BOLYAN AND DANCING,HERE AND IN LAHORE.

AS I SAY,THE PAKIS HERE R MOSTLY PUNJABI OR KASHMIRI AND I HAVE TO SAY,ITS THE PUNJABIS WHO LEAD THE FIELD.
AND I AINT SEEN THIS PRO AFGHAN OR ARAB STANCE OR AN ANTI SIKH OR PRO HINDU ONE EITHER COMING FROM THE PAKIS LIKE I HAVE BEEN HEARING HERE.

Thanks for the site.

Some Pashtuns were hostile to the mughlas for the book written by akhbar that merged Islam and Hinduism. Afghanistan and Pakistan are very old nations in terms of culture. Kandahar dates from Hindu times, Kabul was set up my the Huns, Peshawar was a great center of learning from Bactrian all the way up to mughal times. Charsadda is in Hindu and Buddhist texts. The whole of Swat was a strong-hold of Buddhism, Taxila was a buddhist town, and according to legend, Nurestan was settled by tribes in Makkah that did not become Muslim. If you go to a little town in the Hindu Kush named Bamiyan in Afghanistan, youll see a huge statue of Buddha carved into a mountain side.

Khan is meant to mean chief. As every Pashtun is equal in the eyes of another Pashtun, every man was called a Khan to join the Jirga(Jirgas are tribal councils, and Khan is a persian word, and the idea of calling yourself a Khan comes from Persian councils in Iran where only Khans could join). Im not sure if your friends know what Khan is, but ive met many punjabi speaker who claim descent from settled Pashtun tribes that settled in West Punjab, and Jallandar. Imran Khan is one of these people. HJe is a Niazi, who left the harsh homeland and set up a city-state in the heart of Punjab.

Youre right, we are the descendants of Yusuf(one fo 4 brothers, not teh biblical one). Im not sure about the Israel thing, but it could easily be true as our traditions are jewish, and we always claimed descent from jews. In fact, british missionaries found this out, they thought we didnt know what a jew was, but there were Jews in Afghanistan(pre-1979) that did not convert to the new religions.


The Orakzai may claim descent from Orak, who could have been one of the 4 brothers all Pashtuns claim descent from. Other than that, they are pure Pashtuns.

I dont have any animosity towards other Pashtuns. The only reason there is any animosity is due to feudings. Pashtuns are one nation, and see each other as equals.

If i fell on love with a non-yusufzai girl, there could be mistrust, granted that we lived in the 1600's. Today, people marry in their tribes all the time, but they would marry out of their tribes if they were not so isolated. My moms village in Swat is 6500 feet above sea-level, and 20 miles away from the nearest town which is across a mountain.

There are some troubles with marrying non-Pashtuns, but my mom did it, so its not bad. The rest of teh fighting is just childsih immaturity., and the riots were probably in the early 90's when there were riots over everything in Karachi. Karachi had extremely high tensions till 1995, and people got shot even in the posh areas of karachi. I dont think the riots were over their marriage, there was a bigger background, but thank god those years of bloodshed are over.

Ridwan,

I received these poems from a website called afghan-network.com,it is quite interesting really,because what I can tell is that Afghanistan and Pathans in particular are very tribal,fiercely independent people,even during Mughal times.It certainly does change a few sterotypes because in a lot of people's eyes,Pathan's are big and dumb,but to see a lot of Afghan literature says otherwise,but it is interesting to read because you learn about a people,it may make you understand them a little better. Afghanistan is a very old civilisation,going back millenia,I think Kandahar used to be great seat of learning during Buddhist times.

A few questions for you:

if you look at Pakistan,there are a lot of Khans,it is very common a bit like calling yourself Smith,but what I can tell from Afghani and Central Asian culture in general is that Khan is a term used to mean chief or leader and is not necssarily a surname,not everyone had that name,I thought that is something that was earned,yet you find many non-Pathan Pakistanis,particularly Punjabi muslims who use that a surname,but do they know what Khan is meant for?

Your tribe is Yusufzai,which I think means sons of Joseph,it is claimed that some Pathan tribes maybe be the lost tribes of the Israel.What is your opinion on this. The tribe Warakzai would mean sons of Warrak,who is Warak?

Do you have any animosity towards other tribes,such as if you met someone who is Warakzai or an Afridi,would you automatically feel an air of mistrust?Suppose you were in love with a girl from an Afridi or Warrakzai tribe and you wanted to get married to her,how would it be taken in NFWP?Because I remember a couple of years ago, reading about the Mohajir boy and the Pathan girl in Karachi who eloped and there were riots,and they had to go into hiding because their lives were in danger.

Ranjeet,

lovely.Im Yusufzai from Swat.

Where are you finding these Baba Khan poems?

Ridwan,

here is another of Khushal Khan Khattak's poems,this time in regards to his fondness and attraction for the women of the Afridi tribe,it is quite descriptive.By the way which tribe are you from?

The Adam Khel Afridi Maids
Are both rosy and fair;
Among them there are many beauties
With every kind of charm.

With great bright eyes, long curling lashes
And eyebrows arched and wide,
With honey lips and rosy cheeks
And forheads like the moon;

With tiny mouths like budding roses
And teeth even and white,
Their heads all clad in blackest tresses
Fragrant as ambergris;

Their bodies smooth as any egg,
Without a trace of hair,
Their feet petite, with rounded heels,
Their haunches plump and wide;

Their stomachs slim, their bosoms broad,
Their waists perfectly narrow,
Their figures straight as letter "I's"
And shining silver white

Although I wander, like a hawk,
About the barren hills
Many a pretty little partridge
Has fallen prey to me.

Young and unskilled, or old and sly,
A hawk always seeks prey,
And an old hawk's stoop is surer
Than that of a young bird.

Either the waters of Landdai
Or the Bara stream
Taste sweeter, more refreshing both,
Then sherbet in my mouth.

The peaks that flank Matari pass
Rise straight up to the sky;
In climbing, ever climbing them
One's angles soon gain strength.

I came into Tirah county
Among the Adam Khels;
Now, sat at heart, I've taken leave
Of all these gentle souls.

All love's affairs are well portrayed
By fire, O Khushal:
Although you cover up its flames
The smoke will still be seen.

muds, with all due respect:
you make it sound as if Islam is the only enemy of capitalism. Saudia arabia is the biggest money grabing whore of the west there is. Sikhism is probbaly the modst socialistic of all faiths. Many jews and Christians also arae against Capitalism. I think the real threat the west sees from islam is political and religous disunity which it poses in every country where muslims gather.

Muds, you seem like a decent human, but I think you will have a hard time explianing the treatment of non-mulsims in the koran---especially dealing with slaves and concubines----which God would authorise such things---if the koran is the word of God, then that God who wrote the koran is NOT MY GOD nor will i ever bow to such a thing of inequity.


sincerely I hope we have a meaningful conversation muds

Arjun Singh Dhillon

Arjun, you said that jihad is the most cowardly form of war. That is far from the real truth as you can possibly get!! Firstly if a mujahid is killed running away from his enemy then he does not go to paradise, because he feared his own death more than the punishment of the hellfire. I know it is very easy to feel the way you do, with all of the suicide bombers, but the vast majority of the people that do these things (terrorism, extremism, fundamentalism, whatever ism you want to call it) are sincere people giving their lives for something they believe in, and in almost all cases they are being opressed. Next time you watch the news or read the newspaper you should think why are these muslims always fighting with someone?

People dont fight because they dont have anything better to do, or nothing good is on TV. They fight because they are being attacked. The truth is that islam poses a threat because it defys the capitalist system, money for the few by exploiting the resources of the poor nations and keeping them poor by interest of IMF and World bank loans (including India and Pakistan). So every opportunity these unjust people get to blacken the name of the muslims, they will take it and well they do succeed in convincing many people, even many muslims, who are happy with this system.

Most of you guys are so happy and proud of either India or Pakistan. Why? How can you be proud of a place like either of these? Dont be blinded by nationalism, because it is a disease. This is an evil emotion which naturally leads to racism and hatred of others. It starts off with immediate family, then tribe, then caste, then colour, then religion and so on. This is the real Bakwaas. It is not in anyones religion to treat another person with hatred, I am sure that the messengers of these religions did not preach hatred of other races, and would not be proud of some of the messages on this site. Get your ideas sorted, we are all humans, and lets just be decent to each other.

Sincerely
Muds

Hi guys, I am sorry for the late reply but I was so busy recently. It's a bit of a mission flicking through the messages but I am glad to see some sincere queries. Firstly anonymous has asked if a non-muslim would be treated equally in a case against a muslim. Now if the Islamic system was followed properly by sincere muslims (which at the moment its not)their would be no discrimination. To a muslim the blood of another muslim is sacred, BUT so is the blood of a non muslim living in the islamic state with the complete sharia being implemented. In an islamic state non muslims are not banned, infact they are protected, their is however a tax imposed on the non muslim (Jizya) but this tax is lower than that imposed on the muslim!!(zakat) The prophet said in an authentic hadith "he who harms a dhimmi(non muslim citizen of the state) it is as if he harms me" So we can see non muslims should not be treated in such ways, we only find this kind of thing happening in people who are ignorant of the true message of the prophet. A good example of the positive relations between non muslims and muslims living under the islamic state was at the time of the crusades in spain. The Christian crusaders were hoping to overcome the muslims very easily as they knew that many christiams lived alongside the muslims, but during the battles they were shocked to discover that these christians were fighting along side the muslims!!

As for the Query on heaven: Well I personally never heard of the 28 boys bit!, I am sure that is strange. It is said that the human mind cannot imagine the hereafter, the point where the capacity of the limited human imagination ends, that's where it begins. As for your query on the women of paradise, you make it sound unfair:

firsly the women of paradise (hoora) are not women as such, they are like the angels, secondly they are not their to serve but to act as partners, and the human women too also have a similar reward of that of male partners.

I really appreciate your query, if you want you can e-mail me directly in confidence on mudhasir_younes- at - hotmail.com

Arjun,

Atleast HE got punished. What about the tens of thousands of other guilty soldiers given a virtual license to kill under India's draconian TADA laws?

When militants rape a woman, the village will dispatch messages to other villages to not help the man, and he will be caught and dealt with Kashmiri style. If they get away scotch, then its a pity. But what about the 65,000 innocent Kashmiris killed by the Indian security forces for being suspected as a militant? The 'mighty and just' Indian army cant even give a militant a trial, but theyll be more than thrilled to execute 20 Kashmiris for no reason, as just happened in Sopore recently.

Militants dont force women into marriage, parents sometimes force women into marrying militants. Its not good, but it happens in India too.


Ranjeet,

If Baba Khattak wrote sucha poem, it was to instill honour. Note, he said " I despise a man who does not live by honor"

By the ways, where did you find the poems of Baba Khushaal Khan Khattak

RAnjit, where did you acquire that poem?

Dear Ridwan,

since you are proud to be Pathan,you must have heard of Kushal Khan Khattak,the famous warrior-poet,I have a poem that he wrote just for you,I found it quite hilarious:

Of the Pathans that are famed in the land of Roh,


Now-a-days are the Mohmunds, the Bangash, and the Warrakzais, and the Afridis.


The dogs of the Muhmunds are better than the Bangash,


Though the Mohmunds themselves are a thousand times worse than the dogs.


The Warrakzais are the scavengers of the Afridis,


Though the Afridis, one and all, are but scanvengers themselves.


This is the truth of the best of the dwellers in the land of Pathans,


Of those worse than these who would say that they were men?


No good qualities are there in the Pathans than are now living:


All that were of any worth are imprisoned in the grave.


This indeed is apparent to all who know them.


He of whom the Moghuls say, "He is loyal to us",


God forbid the shame of such should be concealed!


Let the Pathans drive all thought of honour from their hearts:


For these are ensnared by the baits the Moghuls have put for them.

Ridwan

At least the soldiers are being jailed for such acts, whereas the militants who do such acts are getting away scotch free.
Many Kashmiris complain that the foriegn militants FORCE young women into temporary marriages for a couple of years.

Hey Arjun, heres another piece of "Pakistani Propaganda" I found on news.BBC.co.uk today. Too bad BBC has fallen to the Pakistanis, lol:
______________________________________________________

Soldier jailed for Kashmir rape

The Indian army has sentenced one of its officers to seven years imprisonment for raping a young girl in Indian administered- Kashmir.
An army spokesman in Jammu said the soldier had been dismissed from service last month following allegations that he had raped a girl in a village in Doda district last February.

The incident led to angry demonstrations by villagers calling for the punishment of the officer.

The army promised an inquiry and the soldier - whose rank was captain - was found guilty of committing the crime and dismissed.

The army spokesman said that a special police officer had also been involved in the incident.

Rare departure

The BBC's Binoo Joshi in the Kashmiri winter capital, Jammu, says the case marks a rare departure for the army, both in terms of making the case public and in taking such severe action.

She says that although there have been allegations of violence and even rape against the security forces, the army has rarely made public any action it has taken.

Human rights groups have voiced concern about the behaviour of Indian forces, in particular alleged extra-judicial killings and the disappearances of those suspected of involvement in militant activity.

India and Pakistan both lay claim to Kashmir, and Indian forces have faced an insurgency in the territory for the past decade.

India says Pakistan is behind the violence, a charge Pakistan routinely denies.
______________________________________________________

Its about time someone went to jail. now lets work on those 53,000 rape cases sitting on the shelves in kashmir.

Arjun,

"I would just like to point out that anything about rape by the Indian forces done to Kashmiri women is probably pure propaganda invented by Pakistanis and other terrorists. "

I cant even believe youre saying this shit. Im sure the Sopore incident of 1993 was fake pakistani Propaganda(PP). Im sure teh kashmiri newspapers that report Indian rape are also part of PP. Im sure Amnesty International and Human Rights watch are part of PP for reporting countless numbers of cases of Indian rape. I bet Lal Ded Med. Centre(now a pretty much a rape crisis center) is a part of PP. Im sure all the Kashmiri who name Indians by their names are part of PP. Im sure that when India admitted its own soldiers did these things, its was PP!!!!

Im also sure 84 riots didnt exist and were part of Pakistani Propaganda! LOL. Im sure Indira wasnt shot, it was pakistani wasnt it? Im sure 1984 and the Nagaland problem is Pakistani Proganda. In fact, Im sure the poor air quality in Dehli is part of teh ISI terrorist machinery, as is the pollution in the Ganges. Get real.

"If all of this information that you're getting is from the opinionated and very one-sided Hizb Tihr website, then Ridwan we don't have to believe any of this shit. "

Read where I got it from before accusing me.

Read "Kashmir:Double Betrayal" by the Carnegie endowment for International Peace, and ask kashmiri Muslims in Kashmir about the truth. Ask the left over Pundits, im sure they were influenced by the hizbutTahrir!


Face it: DENYING IT WONT MAKE IT GO AWAY!!!

If you want to know the difference between true Islam and false Islam then check out this site.
www.submission.org/miracle

I would just like to point out that anything about rape by the Indian forces done to Kashmiri women is probably pure propaganda invented by Pakistanis and other terrorists.

Ridwan,
"Pundit houses were destroyed by Indians believe it or not. Why would a Muslim neighbor/brother all of a sudden burn his neigbours house? Indians were eager to smear Muslims, remember how Indians used their own trucks to take Pundits away."

If all of this information that you're getting is from the opinionated and very one-sided Hizb Tihr website, then Ridwan we don't have to believe any of this shit.

Ash,good points.What I think you ought to do is spell out exactly and truthfully what true Islam is so we can separate the terms 'Islam',the religion in its' rightful content and context,and 'Muslims' who embrace the falsehoods you have mentioned and the people the rest of us find ourselves fighting with.Really I think you ought cover everything from wearing a veil,notions of 'kaffirs',halal meat,marrying cousins,multiple wives etc...the whole lot so you can allay the fears of people here and then as a result we can hopefully engage in constructive dialogue without stepping on any toes.Carrying on from what you said,I do feel that the Hindus and Muslims who continue whining and sniping about each other for this and for that should watch themselves first.I feel more muslims should stand up against the Mullahs as they have really destroyed the meaning of faith.Apologies for any offence.

I think this is the first time I'm visiting this page so Asalamalaikum, Namaste and Sat Shri Akal.
First of all let me make it clear that its very important that people of different religions and backgrounds should respect each other and always strive for peaceful relations.
Those that encourage hatred in the name of faith and race are evil people who simply despise the idea of tolerance and cooperation.
Right now there are many problems in the world, the sub-continent has more than its fair share. One thing that has to be discarded is most peoples typical habit of defending their nation, tribe or religious community unconditionally. As a Muslim I have noticed that people in my community tend to support Muslim causes around the globe no matter how brutal or indiscriminate they might be.
One prime example that concerns all of us on this site is the issue of Jammu and Kashmir. In reality both India and Pakistan are more or less equally responsible for the suffering of the people in J and K. The Indian armed forces have been involved in rape, looting and torture of civilians. Yet how many in India are ready to condemn these acts and demand that the Indian government clamps down on these rogue elements within the army?
On the other side, Jihadi groups made up of radical fighters are sent across the LOC. These groups are without a doubt sponsored and supported by the Pakistani government. They also have committed acts of terrorism against both the civilians and the Indian armed forces. They have created an atmosphere of terror in Kashmir.
Yet how many in Pakistan are ready to condemen these groups and indeed the Pakistani armed forces that fight alongside them?
I can tell you right now that Islam is a world apart from the evil that pours out of the mouths of the Mullahs. It is this poisonous flow that has infected the hearts and minds of our people.

Ridwan

Your quoate "Ive already told you the Muslim would win like 8 times!"

But is that fair ? Don't you have equal rights in America ? How would you like it if you were in a case with a Non-Muslim and the court automatically is against you and you've got no chance of winning.
So Muslims around the world want equal rights, but aren't willing to give Non-Muslims equal rights in their countries which follow shariah law. Then you say that Non-Muslims should not go to these countries, then why are you allowed to go to Non-Muslim countries.
That's why alot of people around the world think of Muslims as hypocrites (spelt wrong, I know). Besides I wasn't asking you I was asking Muds. I know you support the JI and are a facist but I would like to know other Muslim opinons on this.

Arjun, try to tell me about true colors, let me pull up what you said earlier.

"..and plus there are no Muslims in Indian Punjab, cause Hindus and Sikhs will murder them. MURDER!!! THERE'S NO GREATER GLORY!!! "

Remember what happens when Intifada comes in, Muslims unite, Arabs back Pakistan, Arabs blow up israeli school buses. Only a jackass-psycho enjoys this, are you one of them?

Anonymous,

Ive already told you the Muslim would win like 8 times!


Tarun,

"Ridwan,

"So,you admit that bombing of public transport,hijacking of aeroplanes and rapings/killings of women are the lowest of the low?
That's good.
So,what to you is jihad then ? Because at the moment Hizbul Mujahideen - that's the sort of thing they are doing.Cold blooded murder. "

Thats terrorism, Hizbul Mujahideen is only targetting Indian forces, as are all the other Mujahideen Tanzeems, except for Lashkar who are waging war on all Hindus. Kashmiris know that most of those 'terrorist' incidents are carried out by India, just like the AirIndia bombing 85. Pundit houses were destroyed by Indians believe it or not. Why would a Muslim neighbor/brother all of a sudden burn his neigbours house? Indians were eager to smear Muslims, remember how Indians used their own trucks to take Pundits away.


"Maharaja Hari Singh was a Maharaja - glorified zameendar.Kashmir was his.Pakistan was made for you muslims that didn't want a part of India."

So kashmiris, who dont want to be Indian(which is 99% of kashmiri muslims), should become Pakistani?
Sure thing, but we'll take our land with us.

"Kashmiris simply should have stayed Indian (Where there are enough muslims anyway) or just crossed over if they wanted part of an Islamic country. "

Kashmiris would rather bring the islamic nation to kashmir, rather than go there. India should get out of the Muslim nation, India has no real interest in kashmir, except for a childish want to show off.


"(this isn't really a political point) ...Why do you refer to "us Kashmiris accept assistence from Pakistan" ? I thought you were an NWFP pathaan? "

read my posts. Im half Pashtun, Half kashmiri.

"I have an old mate who's the same as you - NWFP pathaan - he's very pro-pathaan in his views.He doesn't like Kashmiris much.He's a "proud paki" (as he calls himself),BUT he thinks Kashmiris are selfish people. He always has something derogatory to say
about Panjabis,Sindhis and Kashmiris. "

There are lots of people like that. Wake up, this is the real world.

Ridwan,
I'm so glad you've shown us what you are inside. Remember the first time that I told everyone here about Pakistani men disguising themselves as Hindu or Sikh men to proposition Hindu and Sikh girls? And you commented that we see the the same things in Hindu movies, and this is all part of love? That's when everybody saw what you were. I'm so glad that the Israeli talks have failed and that the Palestinians got killed recently. The tide is rising and the hour is at hand.

Muds

I asked Ridwan a question on justice, would I a non-Muslim be able to get the same treatment (as a Muslim) under shariah law if I was in a case against a Muslim ? Or would the shariah court always find infavour of the Muslim over a Non-Muslim.
He said something to the effect that the Muslim would always win over non-Muslim. I would like to know your opinon on this.

You did say to ask questions on Islam and I would really like to ask you what your view on heaven is. I'm not trying to be offensive but on realislam.org it says that Muslim men can expect 72 women and 28 boys, Ridwan says 40 women. To my mind it doesn't make a difference on the sex or numbers involved but the very fact that God created one creature to serve another for eternity, I can't believe that. Like I said before I'm not trying to be offensive but I would like to your opinon on this.

Ridwan,

So,you admit that bombing of public transport,hijacking of aeroplanes and rapings/killings of women are the lowest of the low?
That's good.
So,what to you is jihad then ? Because at the moment Hizbul Mujahideen - that's the sort of thing they are doing.Cold blooded murder.


Maharaja Hari Singh was a Maharaja - glorified zameendar.Kashmir was his.Pakistan was made for you muslims that didn't want a part of India.Kashmiris simply should have stayed Indian (Where there are enough muslims anyway) or just crossed over if they wanted part of an Islamic country.


(this isn't really a political point) ...Why do you refer to "us Kashmiris accept assistence from Pakistan" ? I thought you were an NWFP pathaan?
I have an old mate who's the same as you - NWFP pathaan - he's very pro-pathaan in his views.He doesn't like Kashmiris much.He's a "proud paki" (as he calls himself),BUT he thinks Kashmiris are selfish people. He always has something derogatory to say
about Panjabis,Sindhis and Kashmiris.

Tarun

"Muds,
Don't try to defend jihads - they are the most cowardly form of waging a war (if u can call it that).
How can you justify the bombing/hijacking of planes/trains etc ? "

What you list isnt Jihad. THat is wrong, Jihad is fighting for another Muslim.

"You say "when muslim land is" invaded"? ... well, Kashmir isn't and never was yours.It belonged to Maharaja Hari Singh."

Wrong, Kashmir has belonged to Muslims for a mucch longer time than it did to a Punjabi(odd how youre more than pleased to accept a Punjabi verdict over Kashmir, than a Kashmiri verdict on Kashmir).

"He signed it over to the Indian Government.There.That's it.Simple transaction of property."

He was forced to give it, and he did under several conditions broken by India.

"(Personally speaking I couldn't give two shits for the muslim people of Kashmir.All this 'plebiscite' bukwaas - it ain't ever gonna happen).Pakistan and Bangladesh were created for you muslims.Isn't that enough ? "

You dont care for us, that why we accept Pakistani assistance ever so happily. Pakistan and Bangladesh are obviously no enough. Plebiscite will happen, 4th world nations are becoming spotlighted more.


"As long as there are countries like USA,Russia,Israel and India about - the extremist muslims will be kept under check. "

Usa-supports Saudis and Kuwaitis who export this 'extremist' Islam

Russia-bankrupt beyond belief, lost all its muslim possesions. Unable to stop Islamic fundamentalism from gripping Central Asia. Losing Chechen ground daily

Israel- Making peace with fanatical 'terrorist' leader yasser Arafat and Hezbollah. Wants to negotiate with Hamas.

India- nation facing several insurgencies. Wanting to talk with Kashmiri militants. Wrackerd by communal clashes. Facing rising Hindu Fundamentalism as well. Dont try including India with the great nations listed above(thats right, i called them great).


Despite all these nations, Islamic Fundamentalism is on the rise.

In the 70's, there were no Fundamentalist nation(except for Iran in 79).

In the 90's and 2000,

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Tajikstan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Kuwait, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Algeria, Libya, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Chechnya, Indonesia, Qatar, Bahrain,Nigeria, Chad, Mali, Mauritania,Kashmir, and Azerbaijan are all Fundamentalist nations.

Fundamentalism is rising, and will soon take over, in: Turkey, Bangladesh, Kyrghiztan, Lebanon, Jordan, and Morocco. All these countries have highly influential fundamentalist parties with over 15% of seats in Parliament, and are getting more every election. Only turkey, has tried to get rid of fundamentalists by deeming the Rafeh Party illegal, but due to strikes and oppositions, the ban on this fundamentalist party has ended. Malaysian fundamentalists hold 10% of their parliament.

So why havent US, Russia, Israel stopped this?

SP,
You are really one f*cking ignorant guy !
Tarun

why do muslims **** their sisters? Why.

Shere Punjab

Muds,
Don't try to defend jihads - they are the most cowardly form of waging a war (if u can call it that).
How can you justify the bombing/hijacking of planes/trains etc ?

You say "when muslim land is invaded"? ... well, Kashmir isn't and never was yours.It belonged to Maharaja Hari Singh.He signed it over to the Indian Government.There.That's it.Simple transaction of property.(Personally speaking I couldn't give two shits for the muslim people of Kashmir.All this 'plebiscite' bukwaas - it ain't ever gonna happen).Pakistan and Bangladesh were created for you muslims.Isn't that enough ?

As long as there are countries like USA,Russia,Israel and India about - the extremist muslims will be kept under check.

Tarun.

Muds: at least it appears you reprsent a saner mulsim voice than that hate filled Ridwan

ARjun singh dhillon

OK Tarun, You say the world would be a much more peaceful place without Islam. This concept is a very popular one as they always seem to be in the news, involved in some kind of violent conflict or another, especially in the last ten or so years. But you have to wonder why? One reason is that if a muslims land is being invaded etc then they are bound to defend it. The second is, the single most important threat to the capitalism is Islam. The people in the world that do not want their money to stop rolling in will stop at nothing to blacken the name of Islam, namely USA. Not just them but the greedy muslim leaders also. When russia was communist, do you remember all of the anti communist propoganda in the films and the news, the USA actually aiding and even training a certain Osama bin Laden. Then when communism died they finally noticed the muslims began to slowly lose that nationalistic ideology and began to help their fellow muslims in other countries who are struggling for freedom. Their is a reason for the violence, and it is not mindlessness, in islam an offensive Jihad cannot be waged without a Khalif (the one leader of all muslims) so all you see around you, as hard as it is to believe is in self defence.

The world would be backward with islamic contribution?
Errr,I don't think so.If anything without islamic contribution,the world would be a more peaceful place.
But that's not my point.
I am a right wing hindu,and support a pro-hindu political group.I don't as such,hate anyone,BUT I see certain elements of the Islamic community as a threat to India and it's religions (other than Islam).
Not all muslims are bad,but as far as media goes it is the actions of a few that have given your religion a bad name.

You mentioned universities and medicine - hindus (ancient civilizations) started that off wayyy before anybody else.

Good day to you,
Khudda-Hafiz
Tarun

I read some of the messages on this site and could not get through all of them. I cannot believe the kinds of hateful discussions that are going on. I just thought I would give you guys a bit of info on the true Islam. First of all I would like to say please do not be fooled by the media representation of Islam, and secondly the true Islamic way of life does not exist, officialy as of 1924, unofficially couple of hundred years before that. It is true that mecca and medina are sacred in the muslim world BUT all of the muslim countries are not following the true islam. As all relegions Islam has a spiritual aspect, Muslims pray 5 times a day, give charity to poor etc. But Islam is also political, unlike the other religions of the world. It is this part of islam which makes it entireley unique, a way of life like democracy, communism etc. And when it was followed properly, it prospered more than any other system, and because of the piety of the muslims and their trust in this system, they became very successful. Indeed were it not for the muslims the whole world would be much more backward, the worlds first universities, discoveries in medicine, science maths etc. So what happened to them. I see many of the comments directed to the fact the arabs treat pakis like s etc, etc. Well its true and being a pakistani I can tell you many arabs hate non arabs. The muslims are so many and control the worlds resources, but they are divided. This happened because the muslims in these countries stopped following the true form of islam, and so they will be punished sooner or later by the almighty. In his last sermon the prophet of Islam said " An Arab is not better than a non arab, the non-arab is not better than an arab, the white man is not better than the black man, and the black man is not better than the white man; exept in piety" So please forget the arabs and other nationalistic muslims as examples of islam, the true picture is completely different to what i have seen of your perceptions of Islam. Do not let anger blind you in your discussions, muslim or non-muslim.

Ok Im not a scholar but of what I know I would be glad to discuss with any one with serious queries/comments/clarification with muslims/non muslims. Dont hesitate to email me on Mudhasir_Younes- at - hotmail.com

Ps. Forget this hateful dialogue and lets have a constructive chat without wanting to kill each other afterwards, after all it is not against anyones religion to be civil to others. And please be careful of misrepresentations of the REAL ISLAM.

Taj,

Sorry to have upset you, but are you able to say you arent at fault either?

Dont preach realigion at me and tell me what god is or isnt. You cant udnerstand him.


Can someone tell me if Khalistan means land of the pure, or land of khalsa? We cant ave two nations names land of the pure next to each other now, can we?

Punjabi American,your views are reassuring and I respect that.Im not the only one.Most people here suck up to muslims especially.
LETS HOPE THE SIKHS IN KHALISTAN PUT THEIR LOVE FOR THEMSELVES FIRST AND THEMSELVES ONLY BEFORE THEY WORRY ABOUT SEVA TO OTHERS.WE OWE IT TO OURSELVES.

I just wanted to say, long live freedom for the Sikhs and Kashmiris from Brahmin cow India. Sikhs have sacrificed so much, and have always been tolerant to other groups, yet have suffered the most at the hands of Hindus and fanatical Muslims. All I have to say is •••• India and Pakistan, and I hope and pray that one day there will be Khalistan, where all people will be welcomed, and treated equally but rule will be based on justice and true tolerance.

Ridwog,

You pakis are all the same. You too much mouth no action. No one gives a •••• about pakistan and all the monkeys that live there.
A true story that appeared in anaasian news paper - a pakistani news paper said that The boxer Prince Naseem Ham'ho ho Ho'head was to meet some muslim delegation in scotlan mps councillors etc, however when he found out that they were from pakland he said I am not going there, those people clean the toilet in my country - and that is how all the other muslim nation treat you dirty big mouth mother fuckers - face it no one like you.

NP

ridwan: This is the last post I shall direct to you. I think you are a hate filled ignorant blasphemous little man. And I feel sick even typing your name out knowing what you have written about Sikhism and our Gurus. But God watches all.


LONG LIVE TRUTH AND JUSTICE
LONG LIVE SIKHISM AND ALL OTHER TRUE FAITHS
DEATH TO THE HATEMONGERS AND THOSE IGNORANT BY CHOICE


SSA
ARJUN SINGH DHILLON

Ridwan,who are you to mention our Gurus names,you bastard.Explain.

Idol worship?Hah,thats a hoot!Tell us why muslims keep beards but no moustaches?Why do muslims keep 8 wives?Why do muslims rant kaffir,kaffir at every given opportunity?Why refrain from eating pork?What about the Kabba?
Because people,the muslims compile limitless hadiths and sunnas predicting what the Prophet did and said in his life,and they feel obliged to do the same as he;hell,they even believe he is 'second' to God and is the 'seal' of the prophets,as if he is the only last human being in this world who has the capacity to realize God and spread His ultimate message...IDOL WORSHIP.
Muslims are the true kaffirs thinking they have the divine right to represent all of God's commands.
God is everywhere and can never be held down by some black rock.A heart and compassion is more precious than the Kabba.

You are indeed depraved to let an argument sink down to this level,mocking genocide of people.But then again what do you expect from heretical blasphemous muslim preachers.
Ridwan,I am noticing how you are running out of steam.You can only use empty words and thin arguments,like when the Bosnians failed to get past the Serbs at the frontline in Sarajevo and the surrounding hills in 1994.Found any of those bodies from Srebrenica yet?Ah poor things.Ridwan,keep it up,you are a joke if nothing else.At least we Sikhs dont depend on outside help or hijack the media with arab petro dollars;our plight is not even known by the outside world.But nevermind we live with Chardi Kala making something of ourselves and enjoying it to the full.

Open your ears,and take this in...I do not worship my Gurus,I believe in God.The Gurus are teachers,no more no less.As for the devotion,a lot of Sikhs cannot help it but become overwhelmed by their glory and greatness.

PS.Slavs are the bomb.I would love for there to be a ancient racial link between the indo-scythians and the early nomadic slav tribes in North Russia.
They have taught you a lesson to remember,so dont belittle the experience with a few wisecracks.You are struggling for counterargument.You are getting tired,so surrender.You make me laugh,you seriously do.Chechnya is locked down completely.I dont see no Chechens engaged in streetfighting now do I.

Watch it boy,they might gas your ass like they did in those tunnels in Afghanistan.Oh actually wait,when the Tsar Ivan's Oprachniki slaughtered the mullahs in 1549 at the Battle of Kazan.The Russian Federation put out feelers before Chechnya 1994 to the Tatars as to what would happen if they declared independence.The cowards conceded and have to continue living within Russia.To this day,some Russian or other always makes jokes and sings songs about Kazan...in front of the Tatars!
And forget bringing war criminals to trial,they are laughing their asses off...no massacre of Serbs hey?

Srpska eeiyo Rossiski Narod!

Who the hell is Ivan Grozny the terrible? You mean Ivan the terrible? I dont remember any grozny in there.

Taj,

Im glad I see your 'true colors'. If i can only recall the names of Sikh soldiers who desecrated your shrines. And about all those slavs:

Russia is broke and waging a futile war in Chechnya. Russia is in worse condition that in 96, and Chechens won in 96. Chechens still hold the southern highlands, their base, whereas the Russkys used to own it in 96, which was a serious hinderance the freedom movement. Silly silly ruskys, thinking they can force us to submit when they cant even keep their submarines floating.

Russians have never beat the Muslims. We always kick their asses eventually. Tatarstan, to Afghanistan, to Ferghana, to Chechnya, and the Southern Muslim republics. This new Islamic Rennaissance is for the best.

All those Jugoslavs. They got their asses whipped by the US, and its b****, the UK. 73 straight days of bombing, sure the Jugos won.

Seek union with Kashmiri Hindus, theyre right in Jammu for your convenience, thanks to a group named the harkat-ul-Ansar(now the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen). Im sure theyd backstab you somehow too. Dont try union with Americans, wed just whip your ass into submission too.


Arjun,

One 'idol' is better than a million, so Hindus are the biggest idolaters. Sikhs practically worship their gurus.

India is falling apart for many more reasons than politics.

Pakistan is in so much better condition than India, even with the CE. I went to India and Pakistan just this summer. pakistan politics are more messed up, but the average Pakistani is much better off than the average Indian. Dehli has much more beggars than any other city in pakistan.

Indians are being expelled form school for thirst!
Did you hear? Several untouchable schoolkids were expelled from their schools for asking for water where brahmin kids just took a sip from. Call us idolaters, but you are the fascists.


I love how all you Sikhs and Hindus are so proud of being Punjabi. I really am. But on our side, Punjabis are embarrased to have that tag attached to them. Punjabiism is always made fun of, especially Sikhs. Punjabis butchered themselves like madmen in 47, then Sikhs get it again in 84'. When will you Punjabis learn....

Atleast Muslims will fight you two in the open battlefield. Hindus always hide behing the Sikh kirpan, and then end up backstabbing Sikhs. You sardars made the wrong choice by allying yourselves with Hindus. Of course, it must be fun to backstab.

Sorry everone for the extra post.

Muslims are the biggest idolaters in the world, yet they think Hindus and Buddhists are heathens. If you don't believe in idols, then why is there an idol at Mecca? All the Muslims in the world pray to ONE idol, and its name is the Kaaba, apart from Allah. You are the biggest heathen of all.

Ridwan, you don't have to tell us that India is falling apart because of politics, we already know that. We know that India is a poor country.

But let me tell you this. If India is poor, PAKIS-SULLAH-STAN IS FUCKIN HUNGRY.

LONG LIVE BORIS YELTSIN,LONG LIVE VLADIMIR PUTIN,LONG LIVE TSAR IVAN GROZNY THE TERRIBLE,LONG LIVE GENERAL YERMOLOV,LONG LIVE JOSEPH DJUGASHVILLI STALIN,LONG LIVE VLADIMIR RUSHAILO,LONG LIVE LEONID BREZHNEV,LONG LIVE GENERAL RATKO MLADIC ('SHELL THE MUSLIMS 'TIL THEIR ON THE EDGE OF MADNESS'(SARAJEVO)),LONG LIVE SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC,LONG LIVE BEN GURION,LONG LIVE YITZHAK RABIN,LONG LIVE RADOVAN KARADZIC,LONG LIVE ARKANS TIGERS,LONG LIVE SALMAN RUSHDIE AND COUNTLESS NAMES I HAVE YET TO CITE.PHEW!

I SEEK UNION WITH THE CROATS,SERBS,ARMENIANS,EAST TIMORESE,LEBANESE CHRISTIANS,ISRAELIS,KASHMIRI HINDUS,RUSSIANS,BURMESE,GEORGIANS,GREEKS,AMERICANS.

HEY RIDWAN LOOKS LIKE THE TABLES HAVE TURNED.EVERYONE IS KICKING YOUR ASS WORLDWIDE.RUN FOR YOUR LIFE.HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Once agian Ridwan

blah..............blah..................blah..............................blah......................................blah.................................

and about Islams evil,

onyl rednecks, and retards see evil. How would you like to be categorized?

Quit trying to bring up things which just dont exist.

Ridwan,uh,that was so hurtful.How can you you heartless animal insult my precious bharat?Shame on you!Im in tears now.Ive always had a special place in my heart for India.Id like an apology from you please!!!!LOL!!!!

taj and all others:

dont waste your time responding to this hate filled pig ridwan. He is nothing.


arjun dhillon

Ridwan: you sur da puthar:

ever heard of human and civil rights. As for the saudis they use you as domestics and cheap labor while you kiss their ass as instructed in the koran by that master of domination pscycology Muhammad.

Why is saudi arabia holy---its an evil corrupt copuntry where one family owns 95% of the wealth. They finance extremeist islamic movements all over the world. Why arent you proud to be a pakistani---does it make you feel stronger to associate mentally with arabs hopng one day you too can be one.

Ridwan like i have said before your ignorance and islamic inspired hatred are so obvious. But I tell you the world is awakening to islam's evil.


Dilip Singh

Taj,

That was just nasty as hell, but theres no need for me to shit on India since already full of it. Poor, dear, mother India.


Anonymous,
Of course a Sikh wont win a trial against a Muslim. In Pakistan atleast, the psyche is: We shed our blood for a land for Muslims. If Sikhs feel so hated, why dont they leave? So, why dont they leave, or atleast try to say something to Pakistanis?

Looking at the NWFP and Kashmir versus Saudia, i think Saudia is worth more indeed. To me, the Hijaz(where Makkah and Medina are) is more important and holy than say the Valley of Kashmir or Swat. Saudis arent holier, but their land sure is.

Anon,well put.

Ridwan

Of course I know that it is not the whole truth because I put a news link from this year which shows disrimination in Pakistan. However I do say again if the Muslims leave the Sikhs + Hindus alone then I have no problem.
I see you neglected to answer my question on justice.
Now if these Sikhs/Hindus in Afghanistan have a dispute with a Muslim, are going to get an equal and fair justice or is the Muslim is always going to win the case ?
Also your point on Saudi being a holy land, to most nations their own lands are holy in a way.
Please answer me this question is your province NWFP/Kashmir less important to God that the land of Saudi ?
Isn't the whole world God's creation and therefore if there is anything as a holy land, it's the whole world ?

Ridwan,next time I fly over I will shit and piss into the aeroplane toilet and watch it get wasted over your precious country.I expect you to be waiting for the contents to be unloaded from the skies.That will be worse than the tandoori's I have been feeding you on this thread.Enjoy yourself.

Anonymous,

beautifule, but you and me know that not the case.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NP,

dont you ever shut up? Quit mumbling at me from the sidelines.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Taj,

Dont tell me why i hate you. You did not tell me i hate you for looking through mullahs(maybe once you did). You kept telling me i hate you for being a kafir. Dont slyly skip over that.

The article is 3 years old, but if you look at anti-Taleban material, it come from the 1996-1998 period. Sikhs didnt just leave in 1998, theyve been leaving since 1919. Hindus have been leaving since the 1840's.

Ahh, theres that obsession with Kafirism. Dont worry, youre in the ranks. I think you should go to Afghanistan( even though youd be shot down for walking through Pakistan or iran), its not as bad as you think. Sure, Taleban isnt the best, but theyre good enough.

Ridwan,I noticed your fancy article is three years old.Afghan Sikhs have fled in early 1998 and the Taliban even issued a public statement declaring India a kaffir state.With what they have done and are capable of in mind,no-one could believe your baloney.
Carry on.

Ridwan,once again I will state that you do not like me because I see through both mullahs and pandits,and have spoke out against islamic fundamentalists.Stop glancing over the issues and letting weak arguments.There is no need to hide your real reasons;it surprises me you single me out,maybe I was too vocal.Well you have been caught out.

ridwog is a smelly paki and should put up or s the f up

Ridwan

If all Muslim organisations/governments leave the Sikh + Hindus alone then I have no problem.


Taj

Don't worry about Sikhi, it's on the growth. We may not get grab headlines but it's most defintely on the growth. By the internet or other mechanism of information alot of people are learning about Sikhi. Undoubtedly we will lose some people but we've got to start to accept converts. That way the message of Guru Nanak Dev ji were he wanted the Sikhs to be the lotus flower (which always is beautiful ansd rises to the top whether in clean or dirty water) will be full filled. Unfortunately our leadership at the moment whether in India or UK is let's say not very good (I know an under-statement). In the future it will change because knowledge about Sikhism is changing.

Anonymous,

I think we both can agree that the JI and Taleban follow the same path for the most part, well, heres an article i pulled up that you may never have known about:


Taliban don't worry about non-Moslems
By Kathy Gannon
Associated Press Writer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted November 24, 1997
KABUL, Afghanistan -- A holy man prays over the Guru Granth Sahib, the holiest of books for Sikhs.

Behind him a gentle voice sings an Asian classical song, called a raag. The rhythms of the harmonium and the beat of the tabla drums mingle with the whispers of early evening worshippers.

In a synagogue a rabbi sways gently before the Torah, the Jewish holy book that is wrapped in a blue shroud embossed in gold thread.

Such things happen every day in cities around the world.

But these are happening in Kabul, Afghanistan's shattered capital where the ruling Islamic Taliban army is not known for tolerance in its hard-line approach to religion.

Its soldiers have cut off the hands of thieves, forced women off the job, publicly beat women for not wearing the mandatory burqa and staged grisly public executions.

They have banned music, most games, kite flying, videos and just about all forms of entertainment. Paper wrapping is forbidden because it might contain recycled pages of the Koran, Islam's holy book.

But for adherents of Afghanistan's minority religions -- Sikhs, Hindus and Afghanistan's last Jew -- the Taliban has not been a source of trouble.

Taliban leaders say it is their job to keep the followers of Islam on the correct path and not to worry about those of other religions.

Abdul Rehman Ottaki, deputy minister of information and culture, said the Taliban government realizes its ''responsibility to take care of them (minorities) to keep Afghanistan unified.''

''All Afghans who are our nationals, including Uzbeks, Tajiks, Shiite Muslims, Pathans, Hindus, they all have equal rights in front of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan,'' Ottaki said.

For Sikhs and Hindus, who once worshipped at five temples in Kabul, including one that was 300 years old, it was the Taliban's opponents who caused them grief.

All but one of the temples straddled the front line during factional fighting between former defense chief Ahmed Shah Massood and his biggest rival, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar.

The warren of narrow streets now lies in ruins, a testament to the bitter combat that killed nearly 30,000 people in Kabul between 1992 and 1996, when Taliban troops captured the city.

In the only temple still standing, Sikhs and Hindus gather each night as the sun sets. A brightly polished harmonium, which resembles a table top accordion, and a small set of drums called tablas appear.

Musicians, wearing the turbans that identify them as Sikhs, sit on pillows at one end of the expansive marble-floored hall. The music begins softly, the sound gently caressing the listeners who sway to the rhythm.

It's an eerie sensation to hear the strains of an evening raag in a city where listening to music is a crime that carries a mandatory lashing.

But not for Sikhs and Hindus.

They skirt the ban on music by telling the Taliban that it is their form of worship.

''Like Muslims pray five times a day, we sing our songs in the afternoon,'' said Sarang Singh. ''The Taliban sometime come and just sit and listen. Some say, 'I don't understand it I just like it.'''

Singh said Taliban soldiers are not a threat to them.

''We are not feeling afraid of the Taliban. We are not separate people,'' he said. ''We are from this country.''

For Afghanistan's Jews the trouble began 20 years ago, in 1977 with the arrival of the communists and the Russian invasion two years later.

A closely knit community of barely 100 families, Afghanistan's Jews believed the communists were a bad omen, said Rabbi Ishaq Levin, who has no proof of his age, but guesses it's about 85.

Levin celebrates all the Jewish festivals -- Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, Hannukkah, Passover and Purim -- alone.

He is the last Jew in Afghanistan. His family lives outside Tel Aviv in Israel and his neighbors -- all Muslims -- watch out for him. They shoo away would-be visitors on the Jewish sabbath admonishing them: ''This is a prayer day for his religion. Come back tomorrow.''

Levin refuses to leave Afghanistan. He says he can't, because he is the custodian of the Torah. But the Torah isn't his biggest worry. It's the synagogue.

''This is our holy place and all the belongings of the Jews who left are here,'' he says.

Those possessions are meager -- old pots, pans, a rusted kettle, boxes of moth-eaten clothes, ragged carpets and dusty bundles in a heap on the floor.

The synagogue is a stark cavernous cement room, but Levin says it has all it needs -- a Hebrew inscription on the door that he kisses each time he passes by.

Levin has had his run-ins with the Taliban, but not for his religion. Rather it is the many women who visit his home. They come fully covered in a burqa to have their palms read. Others want the potions he prescribes to aid in love, sickness and health.

It's a living, says Levin who has been reading palms for the better part of 50 years.

''I will probably die here. This is my home,'' he said.


Taj,

Dont come up with such stupid conclusions. I hate you for my own reasons, whether or not youre a dirty(Love that eh?) Kafir?

Go ahead, bring up those instances, remember, im the heartless monster.

Ridwan,you said 'I do see you as kaffir'.Therefore,you hate me for not being muslim...to further irritate you,Im proud of it.So there is a religious element to your hate towards me.Thanks for showing your true colours.You are a fanatical mullah.

And there is no point in making jokes about atrocities against Sikhs...I could easily sink to your level and say the same about Kosovo,Srebrenica,Sarajevo,Samashki,Grozny,Kargil,Ayodha and the countless other massacres committed against muslims.You are sick.

sunny singh,
try peter singh from southall.
and try darri from b'ham.
mandeep dosanjh from nw london too

I'm doing a documentary on behalf of Channel 4 regarding the rise of the vigilante group Shere Punjab, I need some information and characters to appear in this film.. If you have any information please can you let me know.

Ridwan

You say I don't know anything about JI, please tell their policies for Sikhs and Hindus ?
E.g. I understand they would like to bring shariah law, would I as a Non-Muslim and you as a Muslim be able to get the same justice ? Or would the justice system under shariah favour you over me ?

"Taj,
I do see you as a Kafir, and if i hate you, its for personal reasons. "

Thats right i wrote PERSONAL reasons, not RELIGIOUS ones, k?


hmm, what are those Mujahideen doing? To me, they should either be storming camps, or(i know this will really piss you off) carry out another Chatti.:) Have you ever been down that way in Kashmir? Most trashy part of Kashmir it is, and who else but a Punjabi lives there?


Ahh, and for chechnya, its another rallygin point for Islamic Extremism, which means no good for your homeland, hindustan. Bash the Chechens and Afghanis, but those same Chechens and Afghanis are training militants in Kashmir to gun down your SIkh soldiers.

These are what my lips will utter once Kashmir is free=
JAI JAI HINDUSTAN. JAI HINDUTVA. JAI HINDU. JAI HINDU RASHTRA.

Im sure Kashmiris have a few tricks up our sleeves to pay back Punjabi Sikhs for Dogra rule.

Ridwan,ha ha you are very funny.I know all about the Taliban,and the Chechens so need to write down weblinks.Tell me what the hell were kashmiri separatists doing kidnapping British and German tourists in the Valley and then killing some of them.I do presume you know of one of the kidnappers hailing from the UK?He went to a prestigious Uni in London and was recently released form Delhi and allowed back into this country.Surprisingly,the separatists hijacked that plane from Kathamandu and killed that newlywed.

As for Chechens,their little criminal,lawless empire has come to an end.Some freedom fighting going on...more like overtaking Colombia in the kidnapping stakes.The Chechens have been forcibly throwing people out of their apartment blocks before the war in 1994,old age Russsians included.And the crime that goes on there,WOAH!!More like pretending to fight for freedom under the guise of Jihad,all the while fighting to keep a hold onto their rackets.Chechnya is so small it cannot even be seen on a satellite.The place is nothing...it is baron.Yeah the Russians are heartless in bombing women and children.But so are the irresponsible Chechens...whi thought of expanding into Dagestan,where the locals rallied and threw their sorry asses out!!The Russian Bear was laughing.
Goes to show the threat Islamic fundamentalists pose to the world.

Ridwan,youve changed your tune once again.Scroll down and see for yourself.
And could you answer my question in the last post before this.You seem to conveniently glance past people's questions.

Sarb bhai,respect!Our childish tolerance is being paid off with persecution and hatred from the muslims and hindus.The Sikhs have been forced to leave Afghanistan at the instigation of the Taliban,who are behind the Kashmiri insurgency.We Sikhs give so much,and yet we get bloody noses.Example,people like Arjun Malhotra try to get us in on his plans against
muslims and yet his kind,like his family,make off with Sikhs right under out noses.We should also become vocal against sikh-hindu marraiges,as we are with sikh-muslim.Lets see them give us something in return for once...nothing,that is what we get in return.Sikhs love for Sikhs first and Sikhs only.Take care.

'Taj,
I do see you as a Kafir, and if i hate you, its for personal reasons.'

TAJ,

BEFORE MAKING YOURSELF LOOK LIKE A RETARD, LOOK AT WHAT I WROTE!!!

I did not say I hate you because of your beliefs, i Said that if i hate you, its for PERSONAL reasons!

anonymous,

yes parsees have been persecuted in Iran.

Thats right, the glorious JI, you just go on and keep judging a party you dont know anything about.


If there is contradiction between me and realislam.org, it is due to interpretation. A website cannot claim to understand dar-ul-islam, and bash mine as a dar-ul-harb(house of War).

ABout sikhs not building temples in Saudia, it is because Sikhs are a new concept to Saudia. Sikhs have the choice of coming to Saudia and to work. Muslims have been in India and are now part of its rotting fabric.

every major city in Saudi Arabia has played a major role in the growth of Islam, and yes, Saudia is a discriminatory nation.


Also Taj,

I knwo youll love these site

Www.markazdawa.org

www.hizb-ut-tahrir.com

www.ummah.net.pk/harkat

www.rss.org

www.shivsena.org

www.bjp.org

www.kavkaz.net

www.amina.com

YES, YES, yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaahs!!!!! I am now a National Merit Scholar Finalist!!!!!!!

I have heard of this before that Sikhs are not allowed to come to Saudi Arabia. This really bothers me!!!!! People all I have to say is that the Sikhs deserve their own country. Like Taj has said we are the most secular people and pray "Sarbat Da Bhalla", yet even with this we are persecuted. If people around the world can demand their own country simply based on their ethnicity, why can't the Sikhs based on their religion. Punjab is the birthplace of Sikhism yet Sikhism is threatened in Punjab today because of the Brahmins. Support and independent Khalistan!!

Ive just been to realislam.org and I commend Anwar Sheikh for speaking the truth.I have come across many times this concept of the two conflicting worlds of dar-ul-islam,the domain of peace/islam,and dar-ul-harb,the domain of war (against kaffirs);the former must go to war against the latter and only then will there be peace i.e.forcing ones beliefs on another through any means whatsoever.But then there is a quote often used,'no compulsion in religion'.Explain.

In Kuwait there have been driveby shootings against Sikhs and many Sikhs are forbidden from entering Saudi Arabia.Anonymous,I agree with what youre saying totally.Muslims dont deserve to enjoy our men and women or anything in that way;I say let them secularise their entire world from Algeria to Turkey,from Lebanon to Afghanistan,from Pakistan to Indonesia and so forth before they start wars against non-muslims over silly things.Look at Sikhs,they are very secular and tolerant people and yet they are getting nothing in their lives.There is nothing anyone can offer us to make us happy.

Ridwan
First of all I didn't think that you would reply to Dilip's questions. As you did I must complement you.
While I don't mind conversing with you on history and current affairs I don't really want to get into a religious debate with you or anybody else, because it always denigrates to "MY RELIGION IS BETTER THAN YOURS, VICE-VERSA".
I'd just like to make 3 observations and these are meant to be no way critism of any religion, people or belief system.
Firstly I would like to point out some of your answers to Dilip contradicts what is written on realislam.org. But I don't think there is any thing wrong with that because I believe people should be allowed to believe what they like. As long as nobody forces there beliefs on anybody else.
Second observation is concerning Heaven,to my mind I don't think God would create one creature to serve another. Again I wouldn't force this idea on anybody and this is only my opinon.
Thirdly in another forum you wrote that Saudi doesn't allow Siks + others to bring their scriptures in. I also know they don't allow Sikh Guardwaras + Mandhirs to be built, this I believe to be wrong as Muslims are allowed to build Mosques in India. This amounts to religious discrimination and only fuels communal hatred. I know many Muslims would be very seriosly offended if there were any non-Muslim shrines in Mecca or Medina, however there are Mosques in Benares and in pre-47 there were defintely Mosques in Amritsar. OK I can understand to some point why they don't allow them in Mecca and Medina, but I don't think it is really too much to allow Sikhs and Hindus have their own places of worship in Riyadh or other cities apart from Mecca or Medina. The only reason why Sikhs go to Saudi is the same reason why my family and thousands of other South Asians live in UK and probably why you're in USA, it's economics.

You may respond to this if you please but I'm not looking for a debate on religion as I've said above.
I know some of our previous postings refer to religion but that is in the context of politics and history of the sub-continent.

Ridwan

What methods did Auragnez use to make his converts ?

Are you saying the Parsees were persuecuted in Iran ?

I think when you describe the JI as "lovely ang glorious JI", it says it all.

RIDWAN,IM NO KAFFIR BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN GOD AND NOT MUHAMMED AND HIS QURAN,AND I WILL NEVER EVER LEAVE MY RELIGION,AS YOU WOULDNT.YOU ARE A KAFFIR YOURSELF,PLAIN AND SIMPLE,BECAUSE YOU HATE THOSE WHO DONT BELIEVE IN GOD THE WAY YOU DO AND GO AGAINST THE SOVEREIGN AUTHORITY OF THE ALMIGHTY.YOUR ASSERTION THAT YOU BELIEVE IN KAFFIRDOM IS DANGEROUS AS IT HAS KICKED OFF WARS IN LEBANON,BOSNIA,KOSOVO,ABKAZIA,NABORNO-KARABAKH,ISRAEL,PHILLIPINES,CHECHNYA,KASHMIR,ALGERIA,AFGHANISTAN,TURKEY AND ANY OTHER BLOODY PLACE I FORGOT TO MENTION.SEE WHAT MUSLIMS HAVE HAD TO ENDURE THERE AND FORGET THIS PARANOIA.YOUR PEOPLE HAVE FAR TOO MANY ENEMIES AS IT IS.IS IT WORTH IT?

RIDWAN,YOU HATE ME BECAUSE I DONT FALL FOR THE LIES OF PAKISTAN AND ITS' MUSLIMS (AND THE HINDUS OF INDIA) AND HAVE EXTENSIVELY DOCUMENTED THE THREAT,VIOLENCE AND INSULTS POSED BY ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS TO NON-MUSLIMS AND YOU FIND THAT HARD TO GRASP;IF THE UK IS OF NO CONCERN TO YOU,THEN WHY DO YOU BUTT IN AN OTHERWISE MATURE DISCUSSION?YOU MATE ARE CONFUSED.NO WONDER THERE THEN!

IM GLAD YOU HAVE SHOWN YOUR TRUE COLOURS...A TRUE DIE-HARD ISLAMIC FANATIC,YET TRYING TO DISPEL THE FEARS (WHICH YOU HAVE JUSTIFIED YOURSELF) OF ORDINARY FOLK.

JEY BANDA HOINGA THAN FERR EH MARDI GAL SHAD DHE.IN OTHER WORDS,IF YOU ARE A MAN YOU WOULD DROP THIS PREHISTORIC EVIL THINKING.
ALL YOU CHRISTIAN,HINDU AND MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALIST SCUM SHOULD F_UCK OFF TO BED WITH EACH OTHER BECAUSE YOU MAKE ME SICK AND DISAPPOINT THE GREAT ONE UP THERE.I HOPE TO KILL ONE OF YOU ONE DAY.MAY GOD FORGIVE YOU.

Dilip,

Im now answering you on the request of someone else.

"ridwan, do you believe every word of the koran and do you also believe that muhammad, his queresh tribe and then other arabs are the best of the mulsims----because that what muhammad taught, so that his tribe would have dominance and control the trade."
The Quran al-Kareem says all Muslims are one, and to create ranks between yourselves is at the brink of haraam. the Quran talks of the Quraysh in Surat-al-Qureish in a good light, but the Quran talks of all Muslims in good light.


"Is it possible muhmamad came up with the HAJ IDEA so that Mecca would have a lot of money from innocnet pilgrims.
"
The Idea of Hajj, if you studied pre-Islamic arabia, was infact a well-rooted Arab tradition. During the wars between Medina and Makkah, the period of Hajj was the only safe time to reach makkah. During this pilgramage season, all wars would halt, and everyone would come together in Makkah. The idea of Hajj comes not only from the Quran-e-Majeed, but the early arab ways revealed to prophet abraham and kept alive by the Arabs. This is what hajj is today, a coming together of believers who put aside their differences for the sake of god and humanity.

"Can you explain the 72 young virgins and 28 young boys that every muslim male is promised by muhammad."
28 young boys does not exist, and 40 are promised. 40 men are promised to women as well. This is from hadeeth, and as we all know, several hadith are Daif(ie made up)

"Can you explain why Muhammad demanded 1/5 of all booty, women and slaves after each raid he made."

The taxation of 20%, know as khums was never kept by the prophet. It was meant to discourage plundering, and the 20%(a hefty tag dont you agree) was used to make booty halal. The Khums money was distributed among the poor, and widows , while some was stored for years of bad crops and locust invasions. If you read what happened in the Iran-raq war, Iran plundered several bazaars of Iraq, and paid the Khums to the public-well-being ministry, who built schools, roads, and dug wells. the rest non-Khums money was donated to developing Shia areas of the world(south lebanon, Pakistan, North Kuwait), and for building a Shia shrine in the cemetary of Makkah.

"Can you explain why Muhammd, 55 yrs old married a girl of 6, aisha i think her name was. i think the modern term is paedophile. "
The practive of marrying young girls was not new. Aisha was engaged to another man before Muhammed, which proves it was an Arab tradition. The father of Aisha, who im sure you know was Abu Bakr, also insisted on Muhammed taking his daughter into marriage as the wife of Abu Bakr died, and Muhammeds other wives would be able to fulfill the feminine role model neede by the girl. The age of Aisha has been disputed as well. We know she was engaged 3 years before marriage, and only had sex at her will, as forced sex was forbidden in Arabia. Most Muslims agree she was married at 12, and engaged at 9. This tradition still survives among the bedouin tribes of the Hijaz near Al-Jizan. If you think he was a paedophile despite it being tradition and insisted by his best friend, then so be it.

:Can you explain why muhammad butchered 800 jews in cold blood and then turned their women into sexual slaves and sold the children into slavery----can you imagine the Buddha, nanak, jesus ever doing something so evil."
Tell me, how were the Jews so innocent? The jews of Makkah first supported the preachings of monotheistic Islam. The latter verses of the Quran which differ it from Judaism upset the Jews, who had a peace-treaty with Muhammed and his followers of Medina. The Jews broke the treaty, alligned themselves with Makkah, and attacked madinah. In a battle, 300 Muslims took on 2,000 Jews and Makkans. The Jews also tried to prevent Hajj so they could enforce their taxes on the arab tribes, and to continue war with Muhammed. Muhammed and his followers sent out cease-fires to the Jews, but the jews and their allies tried to attack once more. The muslims built a trench around medina, when the jews came for Muhammeds head. The Quran, teaching self-defense, permitted Muslims to attack jews before the jews attacked Muhammed and his Ansar. Muhammeds army killed the Jewish and Makkan soldiers, who numbered arounf 800 put together. The wives and children were sold into 'slavery' at medina, which was a Muslim town by then. In the Quran, it demands so much respect and honor for slaves(ie living outside the house, permitting education, fair treatment, no beating, etc...) that many medinans freed their slaves and sent them to Yemen, where some arabs decide to sell them to Nubia. Against the will of Muhammed.

"Can you explain why muhammad speaks as "we" in the koran as if he and God are one. "

First of all, Muhammed does not once speak in the Quran. The use of we, is a common one in Arabic literature and even british sayings. It is meant to show power. Notice how the Queen says 'we" when referring to herself? in 1400 years, no arab christian has ever questioned this use. Even in todays royal documents of Kuwait, bahrain, UAE and Saudi arabia, the use of 'we' is common to show majesty and grandeur.

"If you answer these questions, I'll give you some more.

dilip singh "

keep them coming.

______________________________________________________

Anonymous,

"Ridwan

"First of all why are there Parsee's in Mumbai ?"
I dunno, same reason there are parsees in Lahore.

"Keep on repeating your lies! Hindus from Sringar are mostly in Jammu having to leave for obvious reasons."
Did i say they wanted to go? No, read my posting and youll see i said they were refugees.

"As for your statement "If the Moghuls wanted you Muslim, you would be Muslim now, there would be no Temples left ot destroy. If so many Hindus claim Kashmiri were forced into Islam, then what would have stopped Indians from being forcefully converted by royal decry? "
Well Ridwan Aurangez and others like him tried to make India a Muslim country. All of it. And they failed because of Sikhs in North India and Marahattas in Western India. That is the basic history of India over the past thousand years. If you don't even know that then you should really read some history books. Infact I suggest looking at the site www.realislam.org which is written by a Pakastani Muslim now living in the UK. "

I suppose Moghuls would not have succeeded, but it is common Indian foolishness that sees Muslims as craving converts. Aurangzeb didnt fail as much as you think, for you see, he converted many tribes in Kashmir and Punjab.

"Telling me to move on, why don't you move on. Stop trying to converts Hindus in Pakistan to Islam."
Hey, theres that foolishness that thinks all muslims want nothing but converts. Let me tell you, I dont give a damn for what Hindus do in Pakistan.


"Infact aren't you proud that Islamic fundamentalists rule Pakistan and Afghanistan. And what is their policy for India ( if they win Kashmir -which I very much doubt they will) ? "
Im proud that they fixed up their societies. And for kashmir, a fundamentalist army may not win, but fundamentalist theology will. Ive heard that in 1989, 2% of Kashmiris considered themselves fundamentalist, while after Kargil, 46% say theyre fundamentalist. The Fundamentalists have already won.


"Isn't it to once again to try and make India a Muslim country, if by the sword necessary. Well that is what the JI in Pakistan have said in the past covertly. And who is the main parties behind the fundamentalists in Kashmir ? I believe it's your friend JI. "

Some Muslims want india to be muslim, maybe by force. So what? Many Sikhs want india to be a Sikh nation, Hindus want it to be a Hindu nation, and many christians want it to be a christian nation. India is founded on the principles of the freedom of religion, and freedom to prostylize(sp?). The main parties behing Kashmir are the lovely ang glorious JI, the Markaz Dawa, and the Ittehad Muslimeen(not the Shia one of Kashmir, who supports independance.)


Taj,
I do see you as a Kafir, and if i hate you, its for personal reasons.

Ridwan,do you personally believe Im a 'kaffir' and do you hate those who come under this category i.e. me,different religion?I feel that Muhammed said that (if being true),not Allah the Great,who I believe in.

Religious fanatics,esp.hindu,muslim,christian,are scum and as Rastafarians sing,Wicked man,wicked man,Jah Jah is gonna get you.Amen!

P.S. Could you put to rest these allegations by Dilip?

Reht Maryada (The Official Sikh Code of Conduct); "Have, on your person, all the time, the five K's: The Keshas (unshorn hair), the Kirpan (sheathed sword), the Kachhehra (drawers like garment), the Kanga (comb), the Karha (steel bracelet)." (Reht Maryada, Ceremony of Baptism or Initiation, Section 6, Chapter XIII, Article XXIV, paragraph (p))

NP

ridwog - laugh at what u want mate y'all jus a bunch a converts who couldn't take da presure..your boy on realislam.org who preaches his bullshite Anwank Sheik is a fool a convert whos ancestors used to be hindu brahmins - coudn't take the heat so fucked off out of the kitchen.

NP

Dilip

Totally agree with you on Tohra, etc.
Ridwan is not going to answer you on those points specifically.
You'll get your answers on www.realislam.org.

Ridwan

First of all why are there Parsee's in Mumbai ?

Keep on repeating your lies! Hindus from Sringar are mostly in Jammu having to leave for obvious reasons.

As for your statement "If the Moghuls wanted you Muslim, you would be Muslim now, there would be no Temples left ot destroy. If so many Hindus claim Kashmiri were forced into Islam, then what would have stopped Indians from being forcefully converted by royal decry? "
Well Ridwan Aurangez and others like him tried to make India a Muslim country. All of it. And they failed because of Sikhs in North India and Marahattas in Western India. That is the basic history of India over the past thousand years. If you don't even know that then you should really read some history books. Infact I suggest looking at the site www.realislam.org which is written by a Pakastani Muslim now living in the UK.
Telling me to move on, why don't you move on. Stop trying to converts Hindus in Pakistan to Islam. Infact aren't you proud that Islamic fundamentalists rule Pakistan and Afghanistan. And what is their policy for India ( if they win Kashmir -which I very much doubt they will) ?
Isn't it to once again to try and make India a Muslim country, if by the sword necessary. Well that is what the JI in Pakistan have said in the past covertly. And who is the main parties behind the fundamentalists in Kashmir ? I believe it's your friend JI.
Anyway speak to you tomorrow.

ridwan, do you believe every word of the koran and do you also believe that muhammad, his queresh tribe and then other arabs are the best of the mulsims----because that what muhammad taught, so that his tribe would have dominance and control the trade.

Is it possible muhmamad came up with the HAJ IDEA so that Mecca would have a lot of money from innocnet pilgrims.

Can you explain the 72 young virgins and 28 young boys that every muslim male is promised by muhammad.

Can you explain why Muhammad demanded 1/5 of all booty, women and slaves after each raid he made.

Can you explain why Muhammd, 55 yrs old married a girl of 6, aisha i think her name was. i think the modern term is paedophile.

Can you explain why muhammad butchered 800 jews in cold blood and then turned their women into sexual slaves and sold the children into slavery----can you imagine the Buddha, nanak, jesus ever doing something so evil.

Can you explain why muhammad speaks as "we" in the koran as if he and God are one.


If you answer these questions, I'll give you some more.

dilip singh

tohra and badal and their cronies are the biggest whores and traitors in punjab

dilip singh bassi

Taj,

There is no doubt on whether youre a kafir or not, because you are. The question arises when what will happen to you after death, and Muslims wont tell you what will happen, even though you seem to be trying to extract a prediction from me.

What am i going to do about it? Probably nothing since your destiny is in your hands, and since when are islamic fundamentalists enemies of the human race. I dont think youre very clear on what a fundamentalist is. Quit this romantic idea that its a gun-totting man with a picture of Bin Laden on it.


anonymous,


"And you keep adding your uneccesary dramitic effects."
My 'dramatic' effects are blunt.

"So what you said originally that Hindus in Kashmir support you or words to that effact are untrue. Because you've just admitted that Hindus and Buddhists want a seperation from the Kashmir. They don't want seperate countries from India but states within side of India. "

Listen right. Hindus in Jammu are not Kashmiri Pundits! Jammu Hindus are like Hindus in Dehli, Hindus in Srinagar are more like Muslims in Muzaffarabad than the hindus in Jammu, though some are refugees there. The Ladakhis would prefer a nation alligned with Lhasa, thats what i meant by state.

"As for me going to Pakistan, why don't you go to Delhi and ask the Muslim Kashmiris settled there. "
One thing, I HAVE talked to Kashmiris in Dehli, and they all hate what India is doing. If a Kashmiri moves to Dehli, like the .00001% that have, they would obviously support India. The Kashmiris in Kashmir are the ones who matter, and are being killed.

"Yes the desruction of Ayodva was wrong, but how Mandirs/Guardwaras have the Muslims destroyed! And how many Hindus and others have the Muslims killed or forced to convert. "
Our mosques were destroyed for what happened during the Moghuls. Heres a word of advice for India: If you want to move forward, quit crying about events that took place 500 years ago~!

"India may not have been a unified country but all of the states within the Indian state today, apart of Nagaland and a few other small ones in the North East, as well as Punjab, Sindh and POK from Pakistan all practised Hinduism and were thought as a geopolitical entity"
Only by Hindi standards.

"different times but they never succeeded in their ambitious to make India a Muslim country where majority would practice Islam."
If the Moghuls wanted you Muslim, you would be Muslim now, there would be no Temples left ot destroy. If so many Hindus claim Kashmiri were forced into Islam, then what would have stopped Indians from being forcefully converted by royal decry?

" Unlike the Muslim occupations of Iran and Afghanistan were they were able to convert everybody to Islam. Incidentially alot of Parsee's escaped from Muslim persuecutions to settle in Mumbai. "
Iran and Afghanistan were Muslim for a long long long long time before Pakistan was. Where do you think most of the 3.5 million parsees of the world are? Mumbai? I dont think so. Try Tabriz and Shiraz Iran.

Yes, when I was in Punjab this summer I read that Tohra bought everyone in his staff cell phones. He himself has 4 computers. Now what would an old man like that need 4 computers for? Nothing. He might as well give them to me since I need them more than he does.

Anonymous,
as much as that would sound good to occur, think about the slim chances. I am a Hindu, but a very sacriligious one. But anyways, I don't think I can be converting to any other religion.

Jatti,pehen ji,tell me about sikh-muslim relations in Canada.And about apne in Vancouver.Much appreciated,much love.

Anonymous,India becoming a Sikh nation is a joke.No religion can ever make this world any better than it is.Do you know what our leaders are like?Badal,Tohra,Barnala are all amritdhari Sikhs but they have turned a blind eye for personal gain.Being a Sikh doesnt guarantee anything;its upto ordinary human beings to make a difference.Peace.

Ridwan

"'Keep on repeating the lie that Hindus want to join the Muslim fundamentalist, and hate the Indian army.'
And you keep adding your uneccesary dramitic effects.
"Infact the Hindus and Buddhists of Kashmir are asking for a divide of Kashmir on ethnic lines."
Ladakhis want a state more alligned with Tibet than Dehli, and jammu hindus want a state. It doesnt matter to me. "
So what you said originally that Hindus in Kashmir support you or words to that effact are untrue. Because you've just admitted that Hindus and Buddhists want a seperation from the Kashmir. They don't want seperate countries from India but states within side of India.
As for me going to Pakistan, why don't you go to Delhi and ask the Muslim Kashmiris settled there.

Yes the desruction of Ayodva was wrong, but how Mandirs/Guardwaras have the Muslims destroyed! And how many Hindus and others have the Muslims killed or forced to convert.

India may not have been a unified country but all of the states within the Indian state today, apart of Nagaland and a few other small ones in the North East, as well as Punjab, Sindh and POK from Pakistan all practised Hinduism and were thought as a geopolitical entity, i.e same sort of culture and belief system. A few hundred years ago Europe was known as Christaindom.
Yes the moguls ruled over most parts of India at different times but they never succeeded in their ambitious to make India a Muslim country where majority would practice Islam. Unlike the Muslim occupations of Iran and Afghanistan were they were able to convert everybody to Islam. Incidentially alot of Parsee's escaped from Muslim persuecutions to settle in Mumbai.
Finally (running out of time - back to work ) I would love India to become a Sikh country.